Discussion: View Thread

Hello Group,
Does anyone ever use informal e-mail agreements to deal with clients, or is exclusive use of contracts the norm?

-------------------------------------------
Nora Galambos
-------------------------------------------

Back when I lived in the USA, I often had very informal agreements. Original rates / terms established in a more traditional contract. But then continued work done by email. 

Hello, Nora, Most of my work with academic clients is engaged in an informal way, often just with a verbal agreement. With commercial clients it is occasionally formal, but usually informal. With attorneys it is always formal, since attorneys are the only clients where I have lost money from non-payment. I have a brief retainer letter that I use, and I will share it with you if you send me your email address.

I find that clients typically prefer a formal contract, but for a small job I have done business by e-mail. Typically with someone I have met in person, though.

Patrick Crockett

Hello All,

I've provided litigation support (expert consulting & testimony) on 100+ cases over the last 30 years.  My client is always an attorney (never the litigant) who represents plaintiffs or defendants.  I've found that lawyers hate contracts (unless they are retaining you), so I don't use them at all, with one exception: governmental entities usually have to have them and provide a pro forma contract. 

VERY IMPORTANT.  In lieu of a contract, I ask (verbally) the attorney to send me an "authorization" letter/email that has at least these three parts: 1) authorizes me to do the work (specify); 2) spend up to (#hours); 3) at a flat hourly rate of ($).   If they don't pay, you can sue and win IF you have this authorization.  I think this "informal contract" helps start you on the road to that trusting relationship that you're after.  Suggestion: consider stopping work if the client get x$ behind, but talk it over with the attorney.

I've been stiffed about 5 times over the years, all by attorneys for Plaintiffs.  I sued them in every case and netted 50%-100% of my fees, once including court costs.  But it's a real pain, so I've evolved to wanting a retainer with plaintiff cases.

     ___  ____    __    ___        ___   ___        __   ___
    /__      /      /__/    /     /   /__       /     /   /      /__
  ___/     /      /    /    /     /   ___/     /     /   /__  ___/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 John R Michael, PhD - Statistician
 Litigation Support - Expert Consulting & Testimony
 Research Professor - Southern Methodist University
 1821 Charles Place, Unit 1821, Plano, TX 75093
 (972) 599-9111 work • (972) 758-0758 mobile
 website: www.wefigure.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Bring science to the courtroom, classroom, living room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 07:28
From: Patrick Crockett
Subject: consulting contracts

I find that clients typically prefer a formal contract, but for a small job I have done business by e-mail. Typically with someone I have met in person, though.

Patrick Crockett

The vast majority of people are honest, but our memories get fuzzy about what was genuinely agreed and there is recall bias by both sides, and then the trouble starts and grows. Prevention is easy: Just get the specifics in clear writing (email is fine) so that both sides can go back to it. If trouble still ensues, then it is highly unlikely that a formal contract filled with legalese would have helped anyway. By 3:1, a formal contract would have probably made it worse for the statistician, because the fine print in such contracts is usually crafted by the other party to protect them to the max.

-------------------------------------------
Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 09:47
From: John Michael
Subject: consulting contracts

Hello All,

I've provided litigation support (expert consulting & testimony) on 100+ cases over the last 30 years.  My client is always an attorney (never the litigant) who represents plaintiffs or defendants.  I've found that lawyers hate contracts (unless they are retaining you), so I don't use them at all, with one exception: governmental entities usually have to have them and provide a pro forma contract. 

VERY IMPORTANT.  In lieu of a contract, I ask (verbally) the attorney to send me an "authorization" letter/email that has at least these three parts: 1) authorizes me to do the work (specify); 2) spend up to (#hours); 3) at a flat hourly rate of ($).   If they don't pay, you can sue and win IF you have this authorization.  I think this "informal contract" helps start you on the road to that trusting relationship that you're after.  Suggestion: consider stopping work if the client get x$ behind, but talk it over with the attorney.

I've been stiffed about 5 times over the years, all by attorneys for Plaintiffs.  I sued them in every case and netted 50%-100% of my fees, once including court costs.  But it's a real pain, so I've evolved to wanting a retainer with plaintiff cases.

     ___  ____    __    ___        ___   ___        __   ___
    /__      /      /__/    /     /   /__       /     /   /      /__
  ___/     /      /    /    /     /   ___/     /     /   /__  ___/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 John R Michael, PhD - Statistician
 Litigation Support - Expert Consulting & Testimony
 Research Professor - Southern Methodist University
 1821 Charles Place, Unit 1821, Plano, TX 75093
 (972) 599-9111 work • (972) 758-0758 mobile
 website: www.wefigure.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Bring science to the courtroom, classroom, living room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph, right on.  And you reminded me of something W. Edwards Deming once said: You can always get out of a contract, but you can't get out of a handshake.

-------------------------------------------
John Michael
Southern Methodist University
-------------------------------------------




Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 11:53
From: Ralph O'Brien
Subject: consulting contracts

The vast majority of people are honest, but our memories get fuzzy about what was genuinely agreed and there is recall bias by both sides, and then the trouble starts and grows. Prevention is easy: Just get the specifics in clear writing (email is fine) so that both sides can go back to it. If trouble still ensues, then it is highly unlikely that a formal contract filled with legalese would have helped anyway. By 3:1, a formal contract would have probably made it worse for the statistician, because the fine print in such contracts is usually crafted by the other party to protect them to the max.

-------------------------------------------
Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 09:47
From: John Michael
Subject: consulting contracts

Hello All,

I've provided litigation support (expert consulting & testimony) on 100+ cases over the last 30 years.  My client is always an attorney (never the litigant) who represents plaintiffs or defendants.  I've found that lawyers hate contracts (unless they are retaining you), so I don't use them at all, with one exception: governmental entities usually have to have them and provide a pro forma contract. 

VERY IMPORTANT.  In lieu of a contract, I ask (verbally) the attorney to send me an "authorization" letter/email that has at least these three parts: 1) authorizes me to do the work (specify); 2) spend up to (#hours); 3) at a flat hourly rate of ($).   If they don't pay, you can sue and win IF you have this authorization.  I think this "informal contract" helps start you on the road to that trusting relationship that you're after.  Suggestion: consider stopping work if the client get x$ behind, but talk it over with the attorney.

I've been stiffed about 5 times over the years, all by attorneys for Plaintiffs.  I sued them in every case and netted 50%-100% of my fees, once including court costs.  But it's a real pain, so I've evolved to wanting a retainer with plaintiff cases.

     ___  ____    __    ___        ___   ___        __   ___
    /__      /      /__/    /     /   /__       /     /   /      /__
  ___/     /      /    /    /     /   ___/     /     /   /__  ___/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 John R Michael, PhD - Statistician
 Litigation Support - Expert Consulting & Testimony
 Research Professor - Southern Methodist University
 1821 Charles Place, Unit 1821, Plano, TX 75093
 (972) 599-9111 work • (972) 758-0758 mobile
 website: www.wefigure.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Bring science to the courtroom, classroom, living room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or, as attorneys say, a handshake is not worth the paper it is printed on.
I agree, anything in writing including email is preferred.
You can set terms, clarify outcome products, time lines, etc.
And unlike a static contract which may or may not include a deliverables schedule, email can provide a nice document trail as the project progresses especially if the scope or work load changes as the project develops. (I set up my email to automatically copy myself on every email that goes out.  I then archive them by project)
Even among professional 'friends' I have things in writing.
 

-------------------------------------------
William Grant
Research Associate Professor
SUNY Upstate Medical University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 12:00
From: John Michael
Subject: consulting contracts

Ralph, right on.  And you reminded me of something W. Edwards Deming once said: You can always get out of a contract, but you can't get out of a handshake.

-------------------------------------------
John Michael
Southern Methodist University
-------------------------------------------




Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 11:53
From: Ralph O'Brien
Subject: consulting contracts

The vast majority of people are honest, but our memories get fuzzy about what was genuinely agreed and there is recall bias by both sides, and then the trouble starts and grows. Prevention is easy: Just get the specifics in clear writing (email is fine) so that both sides can go back to it. If trouble still ensues, then it is highly unlikely that a formal contract filled with legalese would have helped anyway. By 3:1, a formal contract would have probably made it worse for the statistician, because the fine print in such contracts is usually crafted by the other party to protect them to the max.

-------------------------------------------
Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
-------------------------------------------

This issue also comes up in day-to-day work in academic statistics. Investigators come to us and we agree on E% effort to do X, Y, and Z on their grant. This is a contract, too, and should be summarized in a simple email. Changes to the agreement will likely occur; summarize these with email, too.

If (when?) that E% effort is later cut--for whatever reason--the statistician has the right to amend the scope of work to be performed and even to withdraw from the project altogether. Due to cut-backs in real-dollar grant funding over the last decade, this problem is becoming more common and troublesome, leading to friction--and even some nastiness--between the two parties. (I'll spare you my recent stories.)

Grant PIs and statisticians must work to find common ground. Pis who do not negotiate in good faith will come to find themselves with less effective statistical support, if any. Statisticians who do not search for true common ground will either find themselves burdened (and bitter) with underfunded projects or will have too few grant-funded projects to support their salaries.

I don't see this changing in my career-time. (I am 61.)

-------------------------------------------
Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 12:26
From: William Grant
Subject: consulting contracts

Or, as attorneys say, a handshake is not worth the paper it is printed on.
I agree, anything in writing including email is preferred.
You can set terms, clarify outcome products, time lines, etc.
And unlike a static contract which may or may not include a deliverables schedule, email can provide a nice document trail as the project progresses especially if the scope or work load changes as the project develops. (I set up my email to automatically copy myself on every email that goes out.  I then archive them by project)
Even among professional 'friends' I have things in writing.
 

-------------------------------------------
William Grant
Research Associate Professor
SUNY Upstate Medical University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 12:00
From: John Michael
Subject: consulting contracts

Ralph, right on.  And you reminded me of something W. Edwards Deming once said: You can always get out of a contract, but you can't get out of a handshake.

-------------------------------------------
John Michael
Southern Methodist University
-------------------------------------------




Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 11:53
From: Ralph O'Brien
Subject: consulting contracts

The vast majority of people are honest, but our memories get fuzzy about what was genuinely agreed and there is recall bias by both sides, and then the trouble starts and grows. Prevention is easy: Just get the specifics in clear writing (email is fine) so that both sides can go back to it. If trouble still ensues, then it is highly unlikely that a formal contract filled with legalese would have helped anyway. By 3:1, a formal contract would have probably made it worse for the statistician, because the fine print in such contracts is usually crafted by the other party to protect them to the max.

-------------------------------------------
Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
-------------------------------------------

Over the past two years I have work at Lankenau Institute for Medical Research.  As the sole statistician within the the Mainline Health System I am routinely added to all grants with 5% coverage often without a clear understanding of what my role will be.  In the medical field there are some researchers and investigators who appreciate the need for statistics and statisticians.  For others we are just a necessary evil.  So when budgets get cut we will probably be the first to get cut.  It is only getting worse because the recession of the last two years has led to a general cut back on grants.  They are more competitive and many investigators who used to being supported by the NIH are not being funded and belt tightening is become a fact of life.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 15:03
From: Ralph O'Brien
Subject: consulting contracts

This issue also comes up in day-to-day work in academic statistics. Investigators come to us and we agree on E% effort to do X, Y, and Z on their grant. This is a contract, too, and should be summarized in a simple email. Changes to the agreement will likely occur; summarize these with email, too.

If (when?) that E% effort is later cut--for whatever reason--the statistician has the right to amend the scope of work to be performed and even to withdraw from the project altogether. Due to cut-backs in real-dollar grant funding over the last decade, this problem is becoming more common and troublesome, leading to friction--and even some nastiness--between the two parties. (I'll spare you my recent stories.)

Grant PIs and statisticians must work to find common ground. Pis who do not negotiate in good faith will come to find themselves with less effective statistical support, if any. Statisticians who do not search for true common ground will either find themselves burdened (and bitter) with underfunded projects or will have too few grant-funded projects to support their salaries.

I don't see this changing in my career-time. (I am 61.)

-------------------------------------------
Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 12:26
From: William Grant
Subject: consulting contracts

Or, as attorneys say, a handshake is not worth the paper it is printed on.
I agree, anything in writing including email is preferred.
You can set terms, clarify outcome products, time lines, etc.
And unlike a static contract which may or may not include a deliverables schedule, email can provide a nice document trail as the project progresses especially if the scope or work load changes as the project develops. (I set up my email to automatically copy myself on every email that goes out.  I then archive them by project)
Even among professional 'friends' I have things in writing.
 

-------------------------------------------
William Grant
Research Associate Professor
SUNY Upstate Medical University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 12:00
From: John Michael
Subject: consulting contracts

Ralph, right on.  And you reminded me of something W. Edwards Deming once said: You can always get out of a contract, but you can't get out of a handshake.

-------------------------------------------
John Michael
Southern Methodist University
-------------------------------------------

Regarding arrangements with University faculty for statistical collaboration. In the last few years I have been included in several grant proposals that were funded. I am paid consultant outside of the university employment scheme. At the time of writing, each PI and I worked closely on the design, methods and writing, and my stat section was an important part of the proposal. I have a strong CV, and that was probably a factor in funding, too. Each PI and I had a nice relationship and enjoyed each other. I have not checked the total count, but I am talking about 8-10 of these funded proposals. 

Ralph brings up another good dimension. That is when you as the statistician are consulting with a researcher, and the form of your "compensation" will be co-authorship.

RE: COMPENSATION VS. CO-AUTHORSHIP

I agree.

Suppose I am a professor.  Then I get paid.  Part of what I get paid to do is help colleagues write papers.
And, if the help is relatively substantial, I get co-authorship.  I don't give some of my salary back if I am co-author!

It shouldn't be different with statisticians who consult.  I get paid for working.

At least, that's my opinion.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Flom
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 19:47
From: Nayak Polissar
Subject: consulting contracts

RE: COMPENSATION VS. CO-AUTHORSHIP

Dear friends,

The whole issue of co-authorship in relation to compensation is quite complicated, and I have nothing against anyone for any position they may take on this. There is latitude for all. 

I am personally very much against the practice of trading compensation for co-authorship. I have had potential clients say that i could either be paid or be a co-author. I.e., they were willing to pay me but then they would not put me on as a co-author. Co-authorship is a state of nature that can not be changed by a "deal". If you did something that would conventionally earn you a co-authorship, then you are a co-author. It would be deceitful of the lead author to not put your name on the published paper as a co-author.  Some journals even require that those who have earned co-authorship must be included as a co-author, without any reference to compensation. If I write a book, did I or did I not write the book? I wrote the book. Compensation has nothing  to do with it. 

Typically, the lead author is working for pay at a university or elsewhere and does not ask for unpaid time off to do the work and complete the manuscript. Therefore, why should they ask the consultant to sacrifice their pay or else give up their earned co-authorship? Of course, there are lots of situations where it is just fun or interesting to work with someone, they have no funding, and you just do your co-authorship for free. That is quite different than the lead author with funding available who wants to make a "deal" that denies the statistician their co-authorship.

I believe that these "deals" happen for several reasons, some of which are that a) many scientists feel that consultant rates are just too high--even outrageously high--so the money should be more than enough to make the consultant happy, and "do we have to pay everything, even the co-authorship"? b) There is a feeling that statisticians do not add much to a paper and do not deserve co-authorship.

In any case, i believe that statisticians should be paid for their work, when funding is available, and co-authorship depends only on what the contribution is and nothing else.

Best wishes,

Nayak

-------------------------------------------
Nayak Polissar
Consultant
The Mountain Whisper Light
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 18:52
From: William Parr
Subject: consulting contracts


Ralph brings up another good dimension. That is when you as the statistician are consulting with a researcher, and the form of your "compensation" will be co-authorship.

This is very good to get in writing (email being fine) early on - - - your interpretation and assessment of your contribution may not be the same as the interpretation and assessment by the colleague. You could find yourself acknowledged instead of a co-author, if you don't reach agreement on that up front.

Bill Parr

billparr@ceibs.edu

-------------------------------------------
William Parr
Professor
China Europe International Business School
-------------------------------------------

I agree.  Moreover, the PI/professor is often drawing compensation from the same grant that is paying for the statistical support!

I direct the Indiana Statistical Consulting Center.  Our current policy is that compensation and co-authorship are separate issues.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Trosset
Professor
Indiana University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 19:52
From: Peter Flom
Subject: consulting contracts

I agree.

Suppose I am a professor.  Then I get paid.  Part of what I get paid to do is help colleagues write papers.
And, if the help is relatively substantial, I get co-authorship.  I don't give some of my salary back if I am co-author!

It shouldn't be different with statisticians who consult.  I get paid for working.

At least, that's my opinion.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Flom
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 19:47
From: Nayak Polissar
Subject: consulting contracts

RE: COMPENSATION VS. CO-AUTHORSHIP

Dear friends,

The whole issue of co-authorship in relation to compensation is quite complicated, and I have nothing against anyone for any position they may take on this. There is latitude for all. 

I am personally very much against the practice of trading compensation for co-authorship. I have had potential clients say that i could either be paid or be a co-author. I.e., they were willing to pay me but then they would not put me on as a co-author. Co-authorship is a state of nature that can not be changed by a "deal". If you did something that would conventionally earn you a co-authorship, then you are a co-author. It would be deceitful of the lead author to not put your name on the published paper as a co-author.  Some journals even require that those who have earned co-authorship must be included as a co-author, without any reference to compensation. If I write a book, did I or did I not write the book? I wrote the book. Compensation has nothing  to do with it. 

Typically, the lead author is working for pay at a university or elsewhere and does not ask for unpaid time off to do the work and complete the manuscript. Therefore, why should they ask the consultant to sacrifice their pay or else give up their earned co-authorship? Of course, there are lots of situations where it is just fun or interesting to work with someone, they have no funding, and you just do your co-authorship for free. That is quite different than the lead author with funding available who wants to make a "deal" that denies the statistician their co-authorship.

I believe that these "deals" happen for several reasons, some of which are that a) many scientists feel that consultant rates are just too high--even outrageously high--so the money should be more than enough to make the consultant happy, and "do we have to pay everything, even the co-authorship"? b) There is a feeling that statisticians do not add much to a paper and do not deserve co-authorship.

In any case, i believe that statisticians should be paid for their work, when funding is available, and co-authorship depends only on what the contribution is and nothing else.

Best wishes,

Nayak

-------------------------------------------
Nayak Polissar
Consultant
The Mountain Whisper Light
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 18:52
From: William Parr
Subject: consulting contracts


Ralph brings up another good dimension. That is when you as the statistician are consulting with a researcher, and the form of your "compensation" will be co-authorship.

This is very good to get in writing (email being fine) early on - - - your interpretation and assessment of your contribution may not be the same as the interpretation and assessment by the colleague. You could find yourself acknowledged instead of a co-author, if you don't reach agreement on that up front.

Bill Parr

billparr@ceibs.edu

-------------------------------------------
William Parr
Professor
China Europe International Business School
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Lori Price
Tufts Medical Center
-------------------------------------------
I am at Tufts Medical Center and this is our policy as well. We state it right in the list of FAQs we send out to each new person who requests consulting services.





Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 20:06
From: Michael Trosset
Subject: consulting contracts

I agree.  Moreover, the PI/professor is often drawing compensation from the same grant that is paying for the statistical support!

I direct the Indiana Statistical Consulting Center.  Our current policy is that compensation and co-authorship are separate issues.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Trosset
Professor
Indiana University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 19:52
From: Peter Flom
Subject: consulting contracts

I agree.

Suppose I am a professor.  Then I get paid.  Part of what I get paid to do is help colleagues write papers.
And, if the help is relatively substantial, I get co-authorship.  I don't give some of my salary back if I am co-author!

It shouldn't be different with statisticians who consult.  I get paid for working.

At least, that's my opinion.

-------------------------------------------
Peter Flom
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 19:47
From: Nayak Polissar
Subject: consulting contracts

RE: COMPENSATION VS. CO-AUTHORSHIP

Dear friends,

The whole issue of co-authorship in relation to compensation is quite complicated, and I have nothing against anyone for any position they may take on this. There is latitude for all. 

I am personally very much against the practice of trading compensation for co-authorship. I have had potential clients say that i could either be paid or be a co-author. I.e., they were willing to pay me but then they would not put me on as a co-author. Co-authorship is a state of nature that can not be changed by a "deal". If you did something that would conventionally earn you a co-authorship, then you are a co-author. It would be deceitful of the lead author to not put your name on the published paper as a co-author.  Some journals even require that those who have earned co-authorship must be included as a co-author, without any reference to compensation. If I write a book, did I or did I not write the book? I wrote the book. Compensation has nothing  to do with it. 

Typically, the lead author is working for pay at a university or elsewhere and does not ask for unpaid time off to do the work and complete the manuscript. Therefore, why should they ask the consultant to sacrifice their pay or else give up their earned co-authorship? Of course, there are lots of situations where it is just fun or interesting to work with someone, they have no funding, and you just do your co-authorship for free. That is quite different than the lead author with funding available who wants to make a "deal" that denies the statistician their co-authorship.

I believe that these "deals" happen for several reasons, some of which are that a) many scientists feel that consultant rates are just too high--even outrageously high--so the money should be more than enough to make the consultant happy, and "do we have to pay everything, even the co-authorship"? b) There is a feeling that statisticians do not add much to a paper and do not deserve co-authorship.

In any case, i believe that statisticians should be paid for their work, when funding is available, and co-authorship depends only on what the contribution is and nothing else.

Best wishes,

Nayak

-------------------------------------------
Nayak Polissar
Consultant
The Mountain Whisper Light
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 18:52
From: William Parr
Subject: consulting contracts


Ralph brings up another good dimension. That is when you as the statistician are consulting with a researcher, and the form of your "compensation" will be co-authorship.

This is very good to get in writing (email being fine) early on - - - your interpretation and assessment of your contribution may not be the same as the interpretation and assessment by the colleague. You could find yourself acknowledged instead of a co-author, if you don't reach agreement on that up front.

Bill Parr

billparr@ceibs.edu

-------------------------------------------
William Parr
Professor
China Europe International Business School
-------------------------------------------

The concept of providing answers up front to Frequently Asked Questions is brilliant both in managing expectations but also for prevention of Commonly Encountered Problems.

Would you be willing to share the FAQ doc with the group?  I appreciate in advance that this might be considered confidential/proprietary.  But it never hurts to ask.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Nessly
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2010 08:28
From: Lori Price
Subject: consulting contracts



-------------------------------------------
Lori Price
Tufts Medical Center
-------------------------------------------
I am at Tufts Medical Center and this is our policy as well. We state it right in the list of FAQs we send out to each new person who requests consulting services.

Hi Michael,

This was developed a year or two ago and has been very useful for both us and our investigators. I know that many biostats consulting centers based in universities have similar information on their websites, because we looked at those when developing our FAQs. Unfortunately, I don't remember specifically where we looked.

I have attached our FAQ.

-------------------------------------------
Lori Price
Tufts Medical Center
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2010 10:28
From: Michael Nessly
Subject: consulting contracts

The concept of providing answers up front to Frequently Asked Questions is brilliant both in managing expectations but also for prevention of Commonly Encountered Problems.

Would you be willing to share the FAQ doc with the group?  I appreciate in advance that this might be considered confidential/proprietary.  But it never hurts to ask.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Nessly
-------------------------------------------

All,

I'm really enjoying this exchange and wanted to add a little from my experience.  I am employed by a single department in the College of Forestry at OSU as a consulting statistician for our faculty and students.  For the most part, I do not become sufficiently involved in most projects to warrant co-authorship.  Most of my work involves translation of research questions into statistical models and advising faculty and students about which statistical approach might be best to answer their research questions.  Only when analyses are sufficiently complex and interesting to me do I move from consultant to collaborator.

Our Quantitative Sciences Group (QSG) has developed the attached document in a similar vein to the one shared by Lori.  I attach ours to point out what I think is are two important differences that are relevant when our involvement as consulting statisticians is limited to giving advice.  First,  we clearly state the minimum level of mathematical and statistical background we expect of our clients in order to carry out a meaningful conversation with them, and 2) we emphasize that the ultimate responsibility for the appropriateness of the methods and the actual implementation of the procedures lies with the client. 

We can talk all we want about multi-dimensional space, log transformations, etc.  but if the client can't even tell you what a slope parameter means in a simple regression (real case J), then I'm not sure we are really able to communicate, nor am I sure that the client really can carry out the suggested analysis.  So, minimum math/stat background is pretty critical.

If our involvement as consulting statisticians stops at the point of simply giving advice on potential approaches, it is very possible that we have not been provided all important pieces of information or perhaps we have misunderstood exact conditions that would become clear to us if we actually worked with the data ("Oh, yeah, I only measured that treatment for 3 weeks, but all the other for 5 weeks... I forgot to mention that.", etc.).   Of course, with this seemingly insignificant (to the client) piece or information, our advice might be completely different.   But how could we know?  So, making sure that the client understands that the advice is the best it could be conditional on the supplied information is very important.  The ultimate responsibility for the analysis must rest with the client.

Manuela

-------------------------------------------
Manuela Huso
Consulting Statistician
Department of Forest Ecosystems and Society
Oregon State University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2010 10:34
From: Lori Price
Subject: consulting contracts

Hi Michael,

This was developed a year or two ago and has been very useful for both us and our investigators. I know that many biostats consulting centers based in universities have similar information on their websites, because we looked at those when developing our FAQs. Unfortunately, I don't remember specifically where we looked.

I have attached our FAQ.

-------------------------------------------
Lori Price
Tufts Medical Center
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Hello all,

I would like to add to the discussion about statistical consulting and authorship within an academic environment.

I provide statistical advice to researchers (graduate students, faculty and staff, and occasionally undergraduates) in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, North Carolina State University. I am supported by the college and researchers are not charged for the help provided. In many instances I participate as coauthor because of my involvement with the data analysis, and preparation of the manuscript, mainly Material and Methods section and presentation of results.  Many times the quality of the statistical analysis enhances the presentation of results and discussion in a paper. Other times, having a statistician as coauthor gives certain confidence that analysis are done properly, specially  with researchers who do not have a strong statistical background. Some of them feel that it is through analyzing their own data that they learn statistics, and I am glad to help them to gain a deeper understanding of statistical methods and inference processes. In other cases collaboration starts at early stage, and continues through the whole research process until publication of results. As part of a team applying for a grant, I will get some money, if research is funded, that will go directly to cover my salary while I dedicate a portion of my time to this particular research project. Depending in how well I estimate the time needed to complete the analysis, I may or may not need to work extra hours without pay. 

Researchers are very grateful of the help provide by the statistical consulting group within the Department of Statistics at NCSU. 

 I agree the importance of a clear and honest communication between client and consulting statistician and will add the shared responsibility of getting the best statistical analysis  within the context of the research data at hand.

I am enjoying this conversation that has derived to academic statistical consulting and will refer to some ideas discussed here to students in the statistical consulting seminar at NCSU this fall.

Thanks,

Consuelo

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Consuelo Arellano
North Carolina State University
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2010 18:40
From: Manuela Huso
Subject: consulting contracts

All,

I'm really enjoying this exchange and wanted to add a little from my experience.  I am employed by a single department in the College of Forestry at OSU as a consulting statistician for our faculty and students.  For the most part, I do not become sufficiently involved in most projects to warrant co-authorship.  Most of my work involves translation of research questions into statistical models and advising faculty and students about which statistical approach might be best to answer their research questions.  Only when analyses are sufficiently complex and interesting to me do I move from consultant to collaborator.

Our Quantitative Sciences Group (QSG) has developed the attached document in a similar vein to the one shared by Lori.  I attach ours to point out what I think is are two important differences that are relevant when our involvement as consulting statisticians is limited to giving advice.  First,  we clearly state the minimum level of mathematical and statistical background we expect of our clients in order to carry out a meaningful conversation with them, and 2) we emphasize that the ultimate responsibility for the appropriateness of the methods and the actual implementation of the procedures lies with the client. 

We can talk all we want about multi-dimensional space, log transformations, etc.  but if the client can't even tell you what a slope parameter means in a simple regression (real case J), then I'm not sure we are really able to communicate, nor am I sure that the client really can carry out the suggested analysis.  So, minimum math/stat background is pretty critical.

If our involvement as consulting statisticians stops at the point of simply giving advice on potential approaches, it is very possible that we have not been provided all important pieces of information or perhaps we have misunderstood exact conditions that would become clear to us if we actually worked with the data ("Oh, yeah, I only measured that treatment for 3 weeks, but all the other for 5 weeks... I forgot to mention that.", etc.).   Of course, with this seemingly insignificant (to the client) piece or information, our advice might be completely different.   But how could we know?  So, making sure that the client understands that the advice is the best it could be conditional on the supplied information is very important.  The ultimate responsibility for the analysis must rest with the client.

Manuela

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Manuela Huso
Consulting Statistician
Department of Forest Ecosystems and Society
Oregon State University
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2010 10:34
From: Lori Price
Subject: consulting contracts

Hi Michael,

This was developed a year or two ago and has been very useful for both us and our investigators. I know that many biostats consulting centers based in universities have similar information on their websites, because we looked at those when developing our FAQs. Unfortunately, I don't remember specifically where we looked.

I have attached our FAQ.

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Lori Price
Tufts Medical Center
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Hi all, I too am greatly enjoying this discussion.

Regards,

Joe

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Jose Maisog
Medical Numerics, Inc. / Georgetown University
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Authorship rights and responsibilities in biomedicine are covered in the Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts Submitted to Biomedical Journals (http://www.icmje.org/urm_main.html), which are followed by hundreds of journals (list: http://www.icmje.org/journals.html).

Specifically, see "Ethical Considerations in the Conduct and Reporting of Research: Authorship and Contributorship" (http://www.icmje.org/ethical_1author.html)

Specifically, I have used the following points:

• Authorship credit should be based on 1) substantial contributions to conception and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data; 2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and 3) final approval of the version to be published. Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3.

• All persons designated as authors should qualify for authorship, and all those who qualify should be listed.

There is no mention of how ANY authorship role is supported financially, because this is a completely separate issue. Let's face it: Being mere humans, statisticians vent to each other about difficult projects, especially about the "human" issues that arise. When investigators play the "pay or authorship?" game with us, they are likely to have a tough time seeking quality statistical support for their next project.

Thankfully, such problems are rare as long as the expectations are dealt with early and openly by both parties.

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Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2010 08:28
From: Lori Price
Subject: consulting contracts



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Lori Price
Tufts Medical Center
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I am at Tufts Medical Center and this is our policy as well. We state it right in the list of FAQs we send out to each new person who requests consulting services.

I also agree, and remember my verbal contract with someone removing a tree on my lawn.  He happened to speak with a regional speech inflection, and so I thought he said $50.  When the work was done, he insisted on $60. I had to pay it, I had no written contract or estimate, just what I thought I had heard!
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 12:00
From: John Michael
Subject: consulting contracts

Ralph, right on.  And you reminded me of something W. Edwards Deming once said: You can always get out of a contract, but you can't get out of a handshake.

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John Michael
Southern Methodist University
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 11:53
From: Ralph O'Brien
Subject: consulting contracts

The vast majority of people are honest, but our memories get fuzzy about what was genuinely agreed and there is recall bias by both sides, and then the trouble starts and grows. Prevention is easy: Just get the specifics in clear writing (email is fine) so that both sides can go back to it. If trouble still ensues, then it is highly unlikely that a formal contract filled with legalese would have helped anyway. By 3:1, a formal contract would have probably made it worse for the statistician, because the fine print in such contracts is usually crafted by the other party to protect them to the max.

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Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
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I think Ralph's point really doesn't hold universally.  I think it depends on the client.  I have had less than 10 clients.  So my experience may be a little limited.  But I have had mostly formal contracts and I saw no special advantage to the client.  even when my rate is set in writing I have been able to raise my hourly rate in the next year. 
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Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 11:53
From: Ralph O'Brien
Subject: consulting contracts

The vast majority of people are honest, but our memories get fuzzy about what was genuinely agreed and there is recall bias by both sides, and then the trouble starts and grows. Prevention is easy: Just get the specifics in clear writing (email is fine) so that both sides can go back to it. If trouble still ensues, then it is highly unlikely that a formal contract filled with legalese would have helped anyway. By 3:1, a formal contract would have probably made it worse for the statistician, because the fine print in such contracts is usually crafted by the other party to protect them to the max.

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Ralph O'Brien
Case Western Reserve University
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 09:47
From: John Michael
Subject: consulting contracts

Hello All,

I've provided litigation support (expert consulting & testimony) on 100+ cases over the last 30 years.  My client is always an attorney (never the litigant) who represents plaintiffs or defendants.  I've found that lawyers hate contracts (unless they are retaining you), so I don't use them at all, with one exception: governmental entities usually have to have them and provide a pro forma contract. 

VERY IMPORTANT.  In lieu of a contract, I ask (verbally) the attorney to send me an "authorization" letter/email that has at least these three parts: 1) authorizes me to do the work (specify); 2) spend up to (#hours); 3) at a flat hourly rate of ($).   If they don't pay, you can sue and win IF you have this authorization.  I think this "informal contract" helps start you on the road to that trusting relationship that you're after.  Suggestion: consider stopping work if the client get x$ behind, but talk it over with the attorney.

I've been stiffed about 5 times over the years, all by attorneys for Plaintiffs.  I sued them in every case and netted 50%-100% of my fees, once including court costs.  But it's a real pain, so I've evolved to wanting a retainer with plaintiff cases.

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  ___/     /      /    /    /     /   ___/     /     /   /__  ___/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 John R Michael, PhD - Statistician
 Litigation Support - Expert Consulting & Testimony
 Research Professor - Southern Methodist University
 1821 Charles Place, Unit 1821, Plano, TX 75093
 (972) 599-9111 work • (972) 758-0758 mobile
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All,

I think writing things down, whether in a (formal) contract or informally in an e-mail, is a lot like insurance.  Insurance is a complete waste of money (resources) and time -- until something happens and you need it!  So living without insurance (or consulting without writing things down) depends on your level of risk tolerance.  If you are willing to take the chance and do so without documenting the terms of your agreements with others, that is fine -- for you.  I've encountered enough confusion in the specifics of terms (whether inadvertent or intentional), that I always write things down -- even if it is only in an e-mail.

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James Gear
Senior Statistician
Midwest Employers Casualty Company
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 14:36
From: Michael Chernick
Subject: consulting contracts


I think Ralph's point really doesn't hold universally.  I think it depends on the client.  I have had less than 10 clients.  So my experience may be a little limited.  But I have had mostly formal contracts and I saw no special advantage to the client.  even when my rate is set in writing I have been able to raise my hourly rate in the next year. 
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Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
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   All my clients have had formal contracts with me.  It was always at their request and usually also involved a confidentiality agreement.  Now that I work in a hospital system I some times get informal requests from physicians.  Usually it is brief and considered free advice but I did have one person who agreed to pay me in a verbal agreement over the phone and it worked out fine.  However, I find there is an issue of where to draw the line.  A friend or associate asks you for some statistical advice without discussing payment.  You go along thinking it will be simple and short.  But it drags on.  What do you do?  It is an awkward situation which I am sure many of you have faced.  It may be that what we really should do upfront is mention our standard hourly rate and ask for a formal or informal agreement.  I am not a lawyer but I think an agreement via email may be a binding written contract.  But since it is not a formal signed agreement I think the client could contend that it was unauthorized or was not sent by them.  I think written agreements protect us as much as the client and I think we should be careful if we expect payment and do not use one.

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Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
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PS: Michael's message reminded me that I failed to add that I work mostly in labor law (notably employment discrimination) - I suppose every niche is different.  And I'm a sole proprietor - hire temps when needed.

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John Michael
Southern Methodist University
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 09:38
From: Michael Chernick
Subject: consulting contracts

   All my clients have had formal contracts with me.  It was always at their request and usually also involved a confidentiality agreement.  Now that I work in a hospital system I some times get informal requests from physicians.  Usually it is brief and considered free advice but I did have one person who agreed to pay me in a verbal agreement over the phone and it worked out fine.  However, I find there is an issue of where to draw the line.  A friend or associate asks you for some statistical advice without discussing payment.  You go along thinking it will be simple and short.  But it drags on.  What do you do?  It is an awkward situation which I am sure many of you have faced.  It may be that what we really should do upfront is mention our standard hourly rate and ask for a formal or informal agreement.  I am not a lawyer but I think an agreement via email may be a binding written contract.  But since it is not a formal signed agreement I think the client could contend that it was unauthorized or was not sent by them.  I think written agreements protect us as much as the client and I think we should be careful if we expect payment and do not use one.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------

I ran an academic consulting office for two years.  In a response to the "sometimes projects drag on" point, we offered X number of hours of consulting free, and then a fee kicked in.  For minor overruns...we never bothered to charge.

Authorship, however turned out to be a major headache.  Someone else pointed out that getting authorship ironed out in advance helps.  I would like to underscore that point.  When someone needs help, they will agree to ANYthing.  So, the attached agreement/request for consulting services was drafted.  It includes several pages from the ASA policy on authorship and requires the requester to indicate with signature (and initials as in a rental lease) they have read and understand the content.  The document even goes so far as to list the potential authors.  Of course it would need to be altered for your particular situation.  May be a good idea to include fee structure information.

Good luck,
-Jeff Lidicker

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Jeffrey Lidicker
Jeffrey Lidicker Consulting
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2010 09:38
From: Michael Chernick
Subject: consulting contracts

   All my clients have had formal contracts with me.  It was always at their request and usually also involved a confidentiality agreement.  Now that I work in a hospital system I some times get informal requests from physicians.  Usually it is brief and considered free advice but I did have one person who agreed to pay me in a verbal agreement over the phone and it worked out fine.  However, I find there is an issue of where to draw the line.  A friend or associate asks you for some statistical advice without discussing payment.  You go along thinking it will be simple and short.  But it drags on.  What do you do?  It is an awkward situation which I am sure many of you have faced.  It may be that what we really should do upfront is mention our standard hourly rate and ask for a formal or informal agreement.  I am not a lawyer but I think an agreement via email may be a binding written contract.  But since it is not a formal signed agreement I think the client could contend that it was unauthorized or was not sent by them.  I think written agreements protect us as much as the client and I think we should be careful if we expect payment and do not use one.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------

Nora,

Most of my contracts turn out to be hybrids.  In most cases the tasks and fees are determined by email, but then a more formal confidentiality agreement follows.

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Jon Baldock
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One of the members of this listserv asked for a copy of my retainer letter, which I have used with attorneys and commercial clients, but never in academia. It may be of general interest, so I am pasting it below. This is the letter that you would ask the client to complete and send to you. This letter has not been tested in court, but I have not had any problems with clients who have used it.