Discussion: View Thread

I had some criticism of the academic consulting center I am working for at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. We, like many academic consulting centers, offer some services for free, but will charge for external clients and for work where we, rather than the client, perform the data analysis. Most of the time we provide guidance including showing a few examples to get things started, but the ultimate responsibility for data analysis lies with the client.

Our rates for assistance are too high, I was told.  As evidence, this person noted that on all the grants that he/she has seen, the highest rate quoted for statistical consultation was $60 per hour.

I've never served on a grant review board, so I couldn't offer counter-evidence, but I did point out some other arguments, such as the 2006 survey of consultants
--> http://www.amstat.org/sections/cnsl/newsletter/pdf_archive/vol23no1.pdf

If you have served on a grant review board could help me with some data on what you have seen, that would be helpful. I don't need anything more than a general recall of what you have seen. Is $60 an hour really the highest rate that is charged on a grant? Is there something missing on overhead, etc, that might reconcile the $60 per hour with the average of $135 per hour reported in the 2006 survey?

I should note that we don't have any students (yet) working at our academic consulting center, so you'd be paying for a Masters or PhD with multiple years of experience.

Also, if you work at an academic consulting center, do you have a rate that you charge for grants or for external clients? Does the amount you charge change depending on who does the work?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

-------------------------------------------
Stephen Simon
Independent Statistical Consultant
P. Mean Consulting
-------------------------------------------

Hi Steve

I haven't worked on a review board, but have worked on grants both full-time and part-time

I think the confusion is between the two types of jobs. About 5 years ago, I worked full time for a company where all the work was grant funded. My salary, accounting for some inflation since then, was in line with $60 per hour based on roughly a 40 hour week, but there were lots of benefits on top of that, plus indirect costs.

Nowadays I am independent. Some of my work is paid for by grants, and they bill my rate at considerably more than $60/hour (no benefits, no regular hours)

Peter

-------------------------------------------
Peter Flom
-------------------------------------------

I review grants once or twice a year, and have for many years.  I also am funded on a lot of grant-funded projects. It is absolutely not true that $60 per hour is the maximum rate on research grants. In fact, that would be closer to the minimum. I'm with Peter, my rate is $100 per hour. With a volume discount for 200 hours or more we can go as low as $75 per hour and both of those rates are with NO travel involved. If I need to leave my office, it costs more than that. 

-------------------------------------------
AnnMaria De Mars
President
The Julia Group
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 17:35
From: Peter Flom
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

Hi Steve

I haven't worked on a review board, but have worked on grants both full-time and part-time

I think the confusion is between the two types of jobs. About 5 years ago, I worked full time for a company where all the work was grant funded. My salary, accounting for some inflation since then, was in line with $60 per hour based on roughly a 40 hour week, but there were lots of benefits on top of that, plus indirect costs.

Nowadays I am independent. Some of my work is paid for by grants, and they bill my rate at considerably more than $60/hour (no benefits, no regular hours)

Peter

-------------------------------------------
Peter Flom
-------------------------------------------

As others have stated, I'm not aware of any $60 per hour cap (and we have budgeted statistical help on numerous funded grants on a fee for service basis). We bill master's level statisticians at $115 an hour, with faculty time billing at $200 an hour. And that's just our internal consulting rates, for external projects we practically double things.

Nick
-------------------------------------------
Nicholas Pajewski
Assistant Professor
Director, Design and Analysis Unit
Office of Research
Wake Forest University School of Medicine
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 18:18
From: AnnMaria De
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

I review grants once or twice a year, and have for many years.  I also am funded on a lot of grant-funded projects. It is absolutely not true that $60 per hour is the maximum rate on research grants. In fact, that would be closer to the minimum. I'm with Peter, my rate is $100 per hour. With a volume discount for 200 hours or more we can go as low as $75 per hour and both of those rates are with NO travel involved. If I need to leave my office, it costs more than that. 

-------------------------------------------
AnnMaria De Mars
President
The Julia Group
-------------------------------------------

I have encountered the $60 limit in my own work. It may depend on what field one works in and who is the funder. I worked in educational program evaluation and frequently was limited on paper to an hourly rate of $60 if the grant was from the Department of Ed or some other public educational source. But since the total amount budgeted for the evaluation came to more hours than I needed to do the work, I ended up being compensated at a higher effective rate. Education, as we know, carries a lower expectation than biomedical; this had to be reflected in the budget request, but it worked out better in practice.

-------------------------------------------
Annette Gourgey
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 20:52
From: Nicholas Pajewski
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

As others have stated, I'm not aware of any $60 per hour cap (and we have budgeted statistical help on numerous funded grants on a fee for service basis). We bill master's level statisticians at $115 an hour, with faculty time billing at $200 an hour. And that's just our internal consulting rates, for external projects we practically double things.

Nick
-------------------------------------------
Nicholas Pajewski
Assistant Professor
Director, Design and Analysis Unit
Office of Research
Wake Forest University School of Medicine
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 18:18
From: AnnMaria De
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

I review grants once or twice a year, and have for many years.  I also am funded on a lot of grant-funded projects. It is absolutely not true that $60 per hour is the maximum rate on research grants. In fact, that would be closer to the minimum. I'm with Peter, my rate is $100 per hour. With a volume discount for 200 hours or more we can go as low as $75 per hour and both of those rates are with NO travel involved. If I need to leave my office, it costs more than that. 

-------------------------------------------
AnnMaria De Mars
President
The Julia Group
-------------------------------------------

I did consulting on a federally grant-funded project involving educational research several years ago (not through the Department of Ed though) and was paid much more than $60 an hour.

David Nichols








Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 21:48
From: Annette Gourgey
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

I have encountered the $60 limit in my own work. It may depend on what field one works in and who is the funder. I worked in educational program evaluation and frequently was limited on paper to an hourly rate of $60 if the grant was from the Department of Ed or some other public educational source. But since the total amount budgeted for the evaluation came to more hours than I needed to do the work, I ended up being compensated at a higher effective rate. Education, as we know, carries a lower expectation than biomedical; this had to be reflected in the budget request, but it worked out better in practice.

-------------------------------------------
Annette Gourgey
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 20:52
From: Nicholas Pajewski
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

As others have stated, I'm not aware of any $60 per hour cap (and we have budgeted statistical help on numerous funded grants on a fee for service basis). We bill master's level statisticians at $115 an hour, with faculty time billing at $200 an hour. And that's just our internal consulting rates, for external projects we practically double things.

Nick
-------------------------------------------
Nicholas Pajewski
Assistant Professor
Director, Design and Analysis Unit
Office of Research
Wake Forest University School of Medicine
-------------------------------------------

We recently had our University buisness office MBA-types involved in setting up a biostatistics center charge-back fee schedule.  It was very tedious and based on our salaries and benefits/fringe.

here is what they came up with, and we more or less have to use it:

                                                         on campus  Not-FP  For-profit

Professor/Director                               $173      $ 277      $346
Assistant Prof                                       $75        $115       $147
MS- Level /                                           $65        $100      $130
Reseach Associate      



-------------------------------------------
James Grady
Professor
Uconn Health Center
-------------------------------------------








Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 18:18
From: AnnMaria De
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

I review grants once or twice a year, and have for many years.  I also am funded on a lot of grant-funded projects. It is absolutely not true that $60 per hour is the maximum rate on research grants. In fact, that would be closer to the minimum. I'm with Peter, my rate is $100 per hour. With a volume discount for 200 hours or more we can go as low as $75 per hour and both of those rates are with NO travel involved. If I need to leave my office, it costs more than that. 

-------------------------------------------
AnnMaria De Mars
President
The Julia Group
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-19-2012 17:35
From: Peter Flom
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

Hi Steve

I haven't worked on a review board, but have worked on grants both full-time and part-time

I think the confusion is between the two types of jobs. About 5 years ago, I worked full time for a company where all the work was grant funded. My salary, accounting for some inflation since then, was in line with $60 per hour based on roughly a 40 hour week, but there were lots of benefits on top of that, plus indirect costs.

Nowadays I am independent. Some of my work is paid for by grants, and they bill my rate at considerably more than $60/hour (no benefits, no regular hours)

Peter

-------------------------------------------
Peter Flom
-------------------------------------------

After 1 free hour, the UCSF CTSI charges $175 per hour for faculty consulting (including statistical consulting) to internal UCSF and SF CTSI affiliate clients.

http://accelerate.ucsf.edu/research/cs-recharge

Recharge rates:

• $175/hour for faculty consultants (services provided after initial consultation)
• $110-$165/hour for senior staff consultants
• $80-$110/hour for staff analysts

-------------------------------------------
Stuart Gansky
John C. Greene Professor of Primary Care Dentistry
University of California, San Francisco
-------------------------------------------

Dear Stephen,

Even loaded with 100% overhead that raw grant rate is low.  Hourly rates for statistical programmers with a statistical background range between $90-$120.  (Those rates are through an agency, industry setting, and in Massachuetts.)  I have less current data on biostatistician rates but I believe you could add $50 to that range.  To put a fine point on the question, highly qualified automobile and airplane mechanics are billed at $75 in the Marlborough, Massachusetts area!

Best regards,
David

-------------------------------------------
David Reasner
Albemarle Scientific Consulting LLC
P.O. Box 612
Moultonborough, NH  03254
David.Reasner@AlbemarleScientific.com
-------------------------------------------

Dear Steve,

The last time LISA (Virginia Tech's Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Statistical Analysis) charged an hourly rate on a grant was one year ago. Our total estimated cost was $3000, which worked within their budget.

We charged:
$250/hr for a PhD statistician with several years of experience
$150/hr for a brand-new PhD statistician
$90/hr for an advanced and highly qualified PhD student

Our total bill was about 25% under budget. The client was very happy with our work, our timeliness, our rates, and the overall experience.

But then we got into trouble with the Virginia Tech accounting/financial folks.

They said that for federal grants (NSF, NIH, the military, etc.) LISA had to charge "cost" for our services. That would have worked out to:
$43/hr for the PhD statistician with several years of experience
$22.50/hr for the brand-new PhD statistician
$11/hr for the advanced and highly qualified PhD student

I told them that those rates were WAY too low and would not work for us. I asked for a meeting with them to find a solution. (I thought, but didn't say, 'You couldn't pay me to sit and watch TV at those rates.')

Long story shortened: LISA can charge above "cost" IF we carve out a special fee for service aspect of LISA AND keep track of every hour of every working day.

I understand that many statistical consultants regularly keep track of all of their working hours. I did that for a summer job sixteen years ago. I assigned a code to every hour I worked and charged it to a particular cost center. But in my current position as a (assistant research) professor in academia, I don't want to have to categorize every hour of every day.

I explained to the accounting/financial person why keeping track of every hour of every day would not work for me, and especially would not work for the 35 students currently working for LISA. And I asked for a different solution.

None was offered, so we haven't charged by the hour on any projects in the past year. I don't know how it worked, as we were not asked to adjust our hours or our rates, but for the project a year ago we ended up getting all of the money we billed for.

What we do now for new projects is charge for blocks of time/salary, like support for half a student for a semester, or half a month of faculty salary. It's a big pain and I am sure that somehow somewhere there's a win-win-win solution that will keep us happy, the clients happy, and the accounting folks satisfied.

Sincerely,
Eric Vance

-------------------------------------------
Eric Vance
LISA (Virginia Tech's Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Statistical Analysis)
Director and Assistant Research Professor
Blacksburg VA, United States
-------------------------------------------

I think the issue may be one of terminology.

In NIH funded grants, the term "consulting" is used to refer to people who are not key personnel on the grant who provide some minimal incidental services, such as serving on an advisory panel that meets once a year.  It is expected that the person's contribution to the overall effort will be slight and more or less tangential.  There is a cap on the amount that can be paid for this kind of activity, and while I thought it had been raised to $75 per hour, it may still in fact be $60.

By contrast, if you are being asked to do serious work on the project, the kind of work that people in a statistical "consulting" practice normally do for their clients such as data analysis, then you should not be put on the grant as a "consultant."  Instead, you or your organization should have a subcontract on the grant.  With this approach you spell out the annual salaries and fringes of each person who will be working on the subcontract as well as their effort on the project.  Indirect costs are also in the picture.  As well as a budget for supplies, etc.  There is no fixed cap on the amount that can be paid in a subcontract, though the funder will review it to see if it is reasonable.  But ordinary fees charged by statistical consulting firms are within that range.

So the key is to not call yourself a consultant, but a subcontractor.

-------------------------------------------
Clyde Schechter
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2012 11:40
From: Eric Vance
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

Dear Steve,

The last time LISA (Virginia Tech's Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Statistical Analysis) charged an hourly rate on a grant was one year ago. Our total estimated cost was $3000, which worked within their budget.

We charged:
$250/hr for a PhD statistician with several years of experience
$150/hr for a brand-new PhD statistician
$90/hr for an advanced and highly qualified PhD student

Our total bill was about 25% under budget. The client was very happy with our work, our timeliness, our rates, and the overall experience.

But then we got into trouble with the Virginia Tech accounting/financial folks.

They said that for federal grants (NSF, NIH, the military, etc.) LISA had to charge "cost" for our services. That would have worked out to:
$43/hr for the PhD statistician with several years of experience
$22.50/hr for the brand-new PhD statistician
$11/hr for the advanced and highly qualified PhD student

I told them that those rates were WAY too low and would not work for us. I asked for a meeting with them to find a solution. (I thought, but didn't say, 'You couldn't pay me to sit and watch TV at those rates.')

Long story shortened: LISA can charge above "cost" IF we carve out a special fee for service aspect of LISA AND keep track of every hour of every working day.

I understand that many statistical consultants regularly keep track of all of their working hours. I did that for a summer job sixteen years ago. I assigned a code to every hour I worked and charged it to a particular cost center. But in my current position as a (assistant research) professor in academia, I don't want to have to categorize every hour of every day.

I explained to the accounting/financial person why keeping track of every hour of every day would not work for me, and especially would not work for the 35 students currently working for LISA. And I asked for a different solution.

None was offered, so we haven't charged by the hour on any projects in the past year. I don't know how it worked, as we were not asked to adjust our hours or our rates, but for the project a year ago we ended up getting all of the money we billed for.

What we do now for new projects is charge for blocks of time/salary, like support for half a student for a semester, or half a month of faculty salary. It's a big pain and I am sure that somehow somewhere there's a win-win-win solution that will keep us happy, the clients happy, and the accounting folks satisfied.

Sincerely,
Eric Vance

-------------------------------------------
Eric Vance
LISA (Virginia Tech's Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Statistical Analysis)
Director and Assistant Research Professor
Blacksburg VA, United States
-------------------------------------------

Clyde, that is interesting. Could you explain a little more? I do know definitely of statisticians listed among "key personnel" on NIH grants and who have been shown in the budget and paid as a consultant at a rate much higher than that noted ($60/hour.) 

Also, I read somewhere that the maximum salary rate permitted on NIH grants is something like $450,000 per year, which would be approximately $225 per hour. I do not have the exact figures, but I believe that my numbers are in the ballpark. Someone correct me if I am off.

Thank you,

Nayak



-------------------------------------------
Nayak Polissar
Principal Statistician
The Mountain-Whisper-Light Statistics
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-21-2012 07:13
From: Clyde Schechter
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

I think the issue may be one of terminology.

In NIH funded grants, the term "consulting" is used to refer to people who are not key personnel on the grant who provide some minimal incidental services, such as serving on an advisory panel that meets once a year.  It is expected that the person's contribution to the overall effort will be slight and more or less tangential.  There is a cap on the amount that can be paid for this kind of activity, and while I thought it had been raised to $75 per hour, it may still in fact be $60.

By contrast, if you are being asked to do serious work on the project, the kind of work that people in a statistical "consulting" practice normally do for their clients such as data analysis, then you should not be put on the grant as a "consultant."  Instead, you or your organization should have a subcontract on the grant.  With this approach you spell out the annual salaries and fringes of each person who will be working on the subcontract as well as their effort on the project.  Indirect costs are also in the picture.  As well as a budget for supplies, etc.  There is no fixed cap on the amount that can be paid in a subcontract, though the funder will review it to see if it is reasonable.  But ordinary fees charged by statistical consulting firms are within that range.

So the key is to not call yourself a consultant, but a subcontractor.

-------------------------------------------
Clyde Schechter
-------------------------------------------

I work in a CTSA-funded center that charges $75/hour for statistical services, though we can also be put on grants for a partial FTE.

-------------------------------------------
[Cristina] [Murray-Krezan]
[Research Assistant Professor]
[University of New Mexico]
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-20-2012 11:40
From: Eric Vance
Subject: Is $60 per hour the maximum rate on research grants?

Dear Steve,

The last time LISA (Virginia Tech's Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Statistical Analysis) charged an hourly rate on a grant was one year ago. Our total estimated cost was $3000, which worked within their budget.

We charged:
$250/hr for a PhD statistician with several years of experience
$150/hr for a brand-new PhD statistician
$90/hr for an advanced and highly qualified PhD student

Our total bill was about 25% under budget. The client was very happy with our work, our timeliness, our rates, and the overall experience.

But then we got into trouble with the Virginia Tech accounting/financial folks.

They said that for federal grants (NSF, NIH, the military, etc.) LISA had to charge "cost" for our services. That would have worked out to:
$43/hr for the PhD statistician with several years of experience
$22.50/hr for the brand-new PhD statistician
$11/hr for the advanced and highly qualified PhD student

I told them that those rates were WAY too low and would not work for us. I asked for a meeting with them to find a solution. (I thought, but didn't say, 'You couldn't pay me to sit and watch TV at those rates.')

Long story shortened: LISA can charge above "cost" IF we carve out a special fee for service aspect of LISA AND keep track of every hour of every working day.

I understand that many statistical consultants regularly keep track of all of their working hours. I did that for a summer job sixteen years ago. I assigned a code to every hour I worked and charged it to a particular cost center. But in my current position as a (assistant research) professor in academia, I don't want to have to categorize every hour of every day.

I explained to the accounting/financial person why keeping track of every hour of every day would not work for me, and especially would not work for the 35 students currently working for LISA. And I asked for a different solution.

None was offered, so we haven't charged by the hour on any projects in the past year. I don't know how it worked, as we were not asked to adjust our hours or our rates, but for the project a year ago we ended up getting all of the money we billed for.

What we do now for new projects is charge for blocks of time/salary, like support for half a student for a semester, or half a month of faculty salary. It's a big pain and I am sure that somehow somewhere there's a win-win-win solution that will keep us happy, the clients happy, and the accounting folks satisfied.

Sincerely,
Eric Vance

-------------------------------------------
Eric Vance
LISA (Virginia Tech's Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Statistical Analysis)
Director and Assistant Research Professor
Blacksburg VA, United States
-------------------------------------------