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Fish that are so small that you throw them back

  • 1.  Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-20-2012 16:26
    I was talking to a potential client with an interesting problem, but when it came time to discuss money, they said they didn't want to spend more than a thousand dollars. There are several issues here, but assuming that I could do the work for under a thousand dollars, the question becomes whether I want something that small.

    Is there a minimum amount that you charge as a consultant and refuse any business less than that amount? Does it depend on the client?

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    Stephen Simon
    Independent Statistical Consultant
    P. Mean Consulting
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  • 2.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-20-2012 16:36
    Some Questions:

    How long will it take you to do the work?
    Will this job lead to other work with this client or with similar clients?
    Will doing this job preclude your from doing other work that would be more lucrative?

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    Patrick Spagon
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  • 3.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-20-2012 16:41
    Yes, please throw them back so the new kids on the block have a chance to eat. ;)

    Thanks,

    Travis

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    Travis Hinkelman
    Principal Statistician and Owner
    Datavore Consulting, LLC
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  • 4.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-20-2012 17:11
    As a consulting group we have a "PB" policy - working "pro bono" (without compensation) for a student, or young investigator who would not be able to afford our services.  We can only do this when there are no urgent deadlines, and they understand we will just try to fit them in.  We think it is important that young researchers find out how important a statistician can be in their career.  At the end of it we encourage them to try to find someone they can work with.  The data is usually horrendous as is the design - it is a great challenge to try to figure out what to do - so we get an intellectual "uptick" in that you learn things you might not get exposed to in more traditional consulting.

    We never hear from them again, so I have no idea if this exposure works.  We average less than one per year.

    For good clients - we do support work for free (there are limits) when we know they don't have a budget; that is part of building a trusting partnership with them.  When potential clients are just cheap and/or don't understand the amount that has to be done, then this can be trouble. It can be more work explaining and justifying the costs than in actually doing the work. Often "gut feel" tells you this is not a match.

    So it depends on how you feel about the project, the researcher and your workload.  Random chance does play a role here - right time, right project. 

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    Janet McDougall
    President
    McDougall Scientific Ltd
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  • 5.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-21-2012 07:17
    There are two related issues here, I think. One is fixed fee vs. hourly. The other is small vs. big.

    Personally, I always charge by the hour. Charging a fixed fee just doesn't work well, in my experience, so I stopped doing it. All too often, the client adds more work during the project. In addition, it is very hard (at least for me) to estimate the time it will take to do things. Sometimes data cleaning can take many hours; other times, very little.

    But, since I charge by the hour, there are no fish too small for me.  I have had clients where the total time was only 1 or 2 hours. I have had others where it was many hours.

    Peter

    Peter

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    Peter Flom
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  • 6.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-20-2012 16:46
    To me the main question is whether it could lead to something bigger or continuous. I've had small projects that were not very profitable initially, but over several months offered repeated income that added up to a small but respectable sum.

    These tend to be projects that don't require too much of my time or that I could hire an assistant to perform most of the work. They also increased my visibility in certain communities.

    In short, I look at them on case by case basis, the main criteria for acceptance/rejection being time commitment and possibility of future, larger engagements. For instance, one area that I don't do is help with dissertations.

    There were times that the rate offered was so low that it offended me. I rejected those out flat and suggested that they hired a student instead.

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    Carlos Alzola
    President
    Data Insights
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  • 7.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-20-2012 16:53
    Stephen, I may completely have it wrong, so I say this as a general rule from what this sounds like... There is the question of time and effort and whether it is worth more to you (and as was pointed out it creating more business, etc).  We've done projects for way less than market value and been very happy to do so.  We've turned down work for market value because:

    My biggest worry is the lack of appreciation for the value of your contribution and the need to have a statistician and their contributions.  It strikes me that they either have no resources or find the skills and value you bring to be minimal and cheap -- easy to come by -- and a necessary evil?  This usually brings far more problems down the line...

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    Scott Berry
    Berry Consultants
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  • 8.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-20-2012 17:31
    Following up on Scott's point, I have done work for less, but I was happy to see that they wanted a statistician's involvement. The initial analyses were incorrect and I'm glad that I did it. It took a couple of hours. A few hours work may be all they need and your contribution may improve the work. It's better than having a scientist doing incorrect analyses on a small project. Of course, if it's more than a few hours, it might not be worth the contribution.
    David

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    David Bristol
    Statistical Consulting Services
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  • 9.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-22-2012 09:18

    Hi Steve,

    If you are describing a project that would take more hours to complete than the amount they are willing to pay (based on your hourly rate), then I would strongly recommend saying "no".  Scott Berry's comments about the client not valuing your skills are right on.

    However, if the situation is that it's a small project that won't require much time, then the key issue is if they are willing to pay my hourly rate.  One never knows how being willing to work on a small project, even when presented as being a one-time project, can lead to more work later on.  Over the past 7 years of being self-employed as a fulltime consultant, the total amount charged to a client (over the entire time period of working with them) is <$1000 for nearly 10% of the clients I've worked for.  And in any given month, approximately one-half of the invoices I send are for <$1000.  So I definitely do not refuse small projects.

    Another issue in your posting related to "fixed price" projects.  I never agree to such arrangements, since I'm not very good at anticipating potential complications.

    Chuck
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    Charles Davis
    CSD Biostatistics, Inc.
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  • 10.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-22-2012 11:17
    Interesting discussion.

    This kind of request comes to us, too. I find that usually in the 1/2 to 1 hour "free" initial telephone discussion about the client's project (during which time the client usually "bonds" with us or, in a crude sense, gets "hooked"), it becomes apparent to the client what the real scale of the project is. Almost always they have underestimated the time needed, and if they are reasonable, they revise, and if they are not reasonable and just want to get something done and save money, we let them go. We always work hourly, but if it is a big project, we accept a fair cap.

    Clients sometime do approach with a comment such as "this should only take a half hour or so of your time", but they are almost always wrong.

    If we really want to work with the client regardless, or if they break our hearts with their story (e.g., desperate graduate student) and if we can't find another "cheaper" way for them to go, we may take them. We do a fair amount of pro bono work, because that seems good for us and for life. Lawyers do it, so why not statisticians? However, we do not do that if someone is just trying to get by on the cheap or is sort of a jerk.

    Best wishes,

    Nayak



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    Nayak Polissar
    Principal Statistician
    The Mountain-Whisper-Light Statistics
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  • 11.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-22-2012 12:06
    Steve: 

    In adition to the valuable insights you have received so far from the other consultants, here are other questions to bear in mind when deciding what to do about the "small fish":

    1.  How busy are you at the moment of the request? (If very busy, fitting in "small fish" may not be worthwhile or feasible for you.) 

    2.  What are the expectations of the potential client in terms of deliverables gven the fixed, small budget?  (In my experience, it is often clients with such budgets who have unrealistic expectations about what can be done within the scope and constraints of that budget.  For instance, if the project involves any data analysis, you need to allocate at least 3-5 hours to reviewing the background information supplied by the client, inspecting the data, e-mailing or calling the client back with any questions that might arise during this process.  Doing the actual data analysis and the reporting will also take at a minimum 5-10 hours. This all adds up very quickly!)  Can you educate your client on what it would take for you to complete their project successfully and help them prioritize their tasks so that the most important tasks get addressed first?  

    3. Given that you understand the client's expectations, are you able to determine from the get-go whether or not you could meet those expectations within the scope and constraints of the client's budget?  (If the answer is "No", then you can refer the client to a student consultant or consulting organization that may be better equipped to help them.  If the answer is "Yes", you can take the client on, knowing that if any unforseen circumstances arise for this project - e.g., messy data, muddy research questions, - you will have no option but to fully absorb the costs involved in addressing those circumstances.)

    4.
     Do you tend to accept fixed-price projects?  (Each consultant has his/her own rules around this, but some consultants only accept projects where they can charge by the hour for their work, after providing a preliminary quote to the client.)

    5.
     What will the consequences be to you and/or the client if you accept the project but discover half-way through the project that the project is untenable (e.g., too time consuming, too involved) and decide to pull the plug?  (While you can mitigate this by regularly updating your client on the number of hours spent on the project, there is no escaping the fact that a hard decision will need to be made if the project budget is overwhelmed by the project scope.) 

    6. Do you have expertise in the area where the client needs help?  If not, perhaps it is better to refer the client to someone else (unless you are willing to invest additional, unbillable time in order to acquire this expertise.)

    7. What does your "gut instinct" tell you about accepting/rejecting this consulting request?  Are there any early warning systems that you should pay attention to (e.g., sloppy client e-mail, aggressive tone, inflexibility) prior to jumping ship? 

    8. How will taking on this project help you grow your business?  Does taking this project on have the potential to lead to something bigger and better (e.g., additional consulting work, additional client referrals, additional pubications) or will it be a one-off type of thing?  You can usually get a sense from your client if there is more work coming down the pipeline.

    I hope answering some of these questions will help you make a good decision for both yourelf and your client!

    Kind regards, 

    Isabella           


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    Isabella R. Ghement, Ph.D.
    Ghement Statistical Consulting Company Ltd.

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  • 12.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-22-2012 14:17

    Again, a very interesting discussion. In my perhaps cursory readings, I have not seen anyone bring up the issue of design. Too often I have agreed to take on a project, thinking that I asked all the right questions about how it was designed only to find that the data really are not structured to address the question of interest. When I consulted at a university, we tried very hard to have grad students and profs consult with us *before* collecting any data. Didn't always work. In my privous life in private practise I developed long term relationships with clients so that while I didn't start by being involved in design, I was definitely brought in at the design phase for future projects.

    In any case, I believe the decision to accept or reject a contract should also rest on whether you will be involved in the design or if not, how well the study was designed or how well you can decipher how it was designed :-)

    In the words of Sir RA Fisher "To call in the statistician after the experiment is done may be no more than asking [her] to perform a post-mortem examination: [s]he may be able to say what the experiment died of."

    Manuela

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    Manuela Huso
    Research Statistician
    US Geological Survey
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  • 13.  RE:Fish that are so small that you throw them back

    Posted 08-22-2012 17:32

    I'm a bit the opposite of Chuck. I very seldom send an invoice for less than $1,000 to any client. The deciding factor for small projects may be how much other business you have - what are your opportunity costs? Most of our clients are in the $10K to $30K per year range, and usually $30 -100,000 over the life of the contract. Some are quite a bit larger. If I have "free" time, it may be better spent pursuing a large contract than helping someone on a very small project. The same is true of our other consultants.

    If you are just getting started, that may make a difference, I think.

    Yes, it does depend on the client. When we do take a very small contract it is almost always, as Nayak noted, either someone with a very sad story that just can't afford to pay what it really costs or a cause near and dear to our hearts.

    Otherwise, I refer these smaller jobs to former students or junior professionals who I know are just getting started and could devote a lot of attention to the client.

    As far as fixed price, I do that all of the time. I specify exactly what we will do for the price. After 25+ years, I've got a lot of history to predict how long each part of the project will take. If the difference is less than 10%, either we eat the extra cost or we get a nice bonus. If it is more than 10% difference, I let the client know, in writing,  the instant I am aware of the discrepancy and we re-negotiate. Whenever this happens it is always because they want us to do X+Y and we only agreed to do X. They always have the option for us do the extra work for extra pay or do what we agreed for the same pay.

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    AnnMaria De Mars
    President
    The Julia Group
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