Discussion: View Thread

Hello All.  I am being offered a consulting contract with a firm that will involve an unusually high degree of confidentiality.  I am concerned about the amount of legal exposure to my business and am looking into professional liability insurance to cover this.  Has anyone had any experience with this type of insurance?  Thanks, Heather
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Heather Krause
Datassist
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Heather,

Heather, I found very reasonable rates at Marsh, but first I had to join an organization which has group rates with them. The organization is the American Health Information Management Association (www.ahima.org). The benefits page at that website gives the Marsh phone as 800-503-9230. Best, Dick.

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Richard Bittman
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 07:56
From: Karen Copeland
Subject: professional liability insurance

Heather,

I have a policy through a major insurance company.  

Karen
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Karen Copeland
Boulder Statistics
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In the past when this issue has arisen, some ASA Section on Statistical Consulting members have noted that the National Association of the Self Employed (www.nase.org) has discounted Professional Liability Insurance as a member benefit.

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Stuart Gansky
University of California, San Francisco
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Some companies require that you demonstrate you have  general liability insurance before hiring you as a consultant. Have you considered incorporation?   When I first incorporated, I went to my auto insurance agent (Allstate) who arranged through a broker to get insurance.  I haven't done comparison shopping since then. There is another type of insurance to consider, called "errors and omissions" and the advice I usually get (and have followed) is that its more expensive than the general liability, and not to get it.


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Christopher Barker
Statistical Planning and Analysis Services, Inc.
www.barkerstats.com
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First check existing insurance (such as homeowners/renters) to see if you can
do some kind of rider to your policy (assuming you're a sole proprietor) and
check the benefits of membership with NASE.

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Monica Johnston
Statistical Consultant & Instructor
Mostly Math
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Heather,

First, I have to say that I am of an age where I really prefer direct email to facebook type stuff so I'm not at sure what I'm doing.

I have looked at several of the responses to your request and think that if you are really pushed in regard to professional liability insurance, NASE might be your best bet.  (I actually made the cover of the NASE mag Self-Employed America in Jan/Feb 2001.)  However, I haven't been a member in years.

My independent statistical consulting practice of 17 plus years specializes in problems of the enveironment.  When I first started in business for myself I could work directly for major corporations such as US Steel, Monsanto and PPG.  As time went on and these corporations became more risk adverse in their purchasing the requirements for Professional Liability insurance became cost prohibitive for me.  (The other types of insurance mentioned by others I do carry.)

Many of the attorneys that I have had the pleasure of working with over the years have told me that there is no reason for me to carry professional liablilty insurance. 

All that being said, I still work for the major corportations albeit through retention by outside counsel or a major environmental consulting firm being directed by their client to retain my services.  

The bottom line is that I do provided statistical consulting services to clients on projects for which confidentiality is of great importance.  Many of these are litigation support and sometimes as an expert witness.  I do not carry professional liability insurance and don't have any plans to do so.

Hope this helps. 

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Douglas Splitstone
Principal
Splitstone & Associates
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Doug S has well echoed my own experience as a long-term consultant.  In fact, I am wondering if any statistician has ever been sued for negligence, malpractice etc. (My prior probability is about .3.)  I would love to hear of any such instances if they exist. Anybody out there have such a tale of woe?

Herb W

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Herbert Weisberg
President
Correlation Research, Inc.
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 15:08
From: Douglas Splitstone
Subject: professional liability insurance

Heather,

First, I have to say that I am of an age where I really prefer direct email to facebook type stuff so I'm not at sure what I'm doing.

I have looked at several of the responses to your request and think that if you are really pushed in regard to professional liability insurance, NASE might be your best bet.  (I actually made the cover of the NASE mag Self-Employed America in Jan/Feb 2001.)  However, I haven't been a member in years.

My independent statistical consulting practice of 17 plus years specializes in problems of the enveironment.  When I first started in business for myself I could work directly for major corporations such as US Steel, Monsanto and PPG.  As time went on and these corporations became more risk adverse in their purchasing the requirements for Professional Liability insurance became cost prohibitive for me.  (The other types of insurance mentioned by others I do carry.)

Many of the attorneys that I have had the pleasure of working with over the years have told me that there is no reason for me to carry professional liablilty insurance. 

All that being said, I still work for the major corportations albeit through retention by outside counsel or a major environmental consulting firm being directed by their client to retain my services.  

The bottom line is that I do provided statistical consulting services to clients on projects for which confidentiality is of great importance.  Many of these are litigation support and sometimes as an expert witness.  I do not carry professional liability insurance and don't have any plans to do so.

Hope this helps. 

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Douglas Splitstone
Principal
Splitstone & Associates
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Arthur Kendall
Social Research Consultants
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I have been doing consultation since 1972, I have never been sued.
I took one client to small claims court, won, but the sheriff never seized assets of the client. If the sheriff had seized assets, I would have had to pay the lawyer 1/3.

Perhaps someone could put together a survey to find out these kinds of things.

How many statisticians on the basis of statistical work
have been sued at all.
have been sued but had no expenses,
have been sued and won but had no expenses,
have been sued and settled with some loss,
have been sued and lost.

How many have had to sue to be paid?
How many sued to be paid, won, and still received noting?
How many sued and were made more or less whole financially?


I have been doing consultation since 1972, I have never been sued.
I took one client to small claims court, won, but the sheriff never seized assets of the client. If the sheriff had seized assets, I would have had to pay the lawyer 1/3.




Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 16:36
From: Herbert Weisberg
Subject: professional liability insurance

Doug S has well echoed my own experience as a long-term consultant.  In fact, I am wondering if any statistician has ever been sued for negligence, malpractice etc. (My prior probability is about .3.)  I would love to hear of any such instances if they exist. Anybody out there have such a tale of woe?

Herb W

-------------------------------------------
Herbert Weisberg
President
Correlation Research, Inc.
-------------------------------------------

Great idea--perhaps a project for autumn.  To start, I can do an Internet search to see if this kind of survey has been done for statisticians or other professionals.  It might be nice to gather some literature and post it as a resource in the CNSL Library.  More help with Internet searches is welcomed.


-------------------------------------------
Monica Johnston
Statistical Consultant & Instructor
Mostly Math
-------------------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 17:31
From: Arthur Kendall
Subject: professional liability insurance



-------------------------------------------
Arthur Kendall
Social Research Consultants
-------------------------------------------

I have been doing consultation since 1972, I have never been sued.
I took one client to small claims court, won, but the sheriff never seized assets of the client. If the sheriff had seized assets, I would have had to pay the lawyer 1/3.

Perhaps someone could put together a survey to find out these kinds of things.

How many statisticians on the basis of statistical work
have been sued at all.
have been sued but had no expenses,
have been sued and won but had no expenses,
have been sued and settled with some loss,
have been sued and lost.

How many have had to sue to be paid?
How many sued to be paid, won, and still received noting?
How many sued and were made more or less whole financially?


I have been doing consultation since 1972, I have never been sued.
I took one client to small claims court, won, but the sheriff never seized assets of the client. If the sheriff had seized assets, I would have had to pay the lawyer 1/3.




Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 16:36
From: Herbert Weisberg
Subject: professional liability insurance

Doug S has well echoed my own experience as a long-term consultant.  In fact, I am wondering if any statistician has ever been sued for negligence, malpractice etc. (My prior probability is about .3.)  I would love to hear of any such instances if they exist. Anybody out there have such a tale of woe?

Herb W

-------------------------------------------
Herbert Weisberg
President
Correlation Research, Inc.
-------------------------------------------

I decided to post this message to complain about all the messages I am getting from the egroup on this subject of professional liability insurance.  I think this is a personal question from Monica that is of no interest to me and probably most of the members of the egroups.  Yet because of the replies we are all innudated with this discussion.  Now that I have wasted my time on this I will add to the discussion and apologize to the other disinterested members who get this.

I have been doing private consulting for over six years including work as an expert witness and befroe seeing the thread I never even thought about professional liability insurance.  The most informative part of the discussion has been the two experts who explained why it is a waste of time.

I would not get such insurance because I think proving malpractice in statistical analysis would be very difficult.  How could anyone make a case of malpractice.  Neither a judge nor a jury would be able to be convinced even if there were a legitimate case.  If you follow accepted methods in the literature and you are suitably trained in statistics I can't see what there is to worry about.  If it is violating confidentiality then make sure you don't do that.  Am I missing something.

Please don't get into a big discussion about conducting surveys to find out if anyone was ever sued.  If some of you are interested in continuing the discussion, please do it outside of the egroup!

-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 18:06
From: Monica Johnston
Subject: professional liability insurance

Great idea--perhaps a project for autumn.  To start, I can do an Internet search to see if this kind of survey has been done for statisticians or other professionals.  It might be nice to gather some literature and post it as a resource in the CNSL Library.  More help with Internet searches is welcomed.


-------------------------------------------
Monica Johnston
Statistical Consultant & Instructor
Mostly Math
-------------------------------------------

THE DELUGE. First, to reply to Michael about the deluge of email messages, I happen to be interested in this specific topic, but, unfortunately, there is no way to narrow the responses down to those who are interested. Perhaps ASA or someone with lots of time plus some interest in this kind of thing could create a system where there is a query and then just those interested in the topic would so indicate somewhere. Just those people could get the "deluge". The 10-15 email messages that I received on this topic so far don't seem like a deluge, particularly because I am interested in the topic and have made inquiries before. However, it is now the weekend, and the real deluge may follow on Monday or Tuesday, after the 4th. I won't mind--there is always the delete key, and the subject line allows one to identify this thread without opening the messages. 

Hi everyone,

Michael's e-mail does raise the following legitimate question:  What is the purpose of this mailing list? 

The sporadic e-mails that I receive from this list seem to suggest that perhaps many of us (including myself) are not aware of how exactly we are supposed to use this list.  Is the list meant for personal or impersonal questions? Questions that appeal to most of us or just a few of us? 

A while ago, I was hoping that this list might be a good place to bounce off ideas about statistical problems we are working on - the fact that no one is doing this at the moment discouraged me from pursuing this avenue.  What if one of us would need advice on how to expand his/her consulting business, marketing niche, range of products on offer, etc.?  Would these be considered personal questions as well? Chances are there is a wealth of information waiting to be tapped by those in need if only they knew they could do it. 

A lot of us practice statistical consulting in relative isolation - having a sounding board in the form of a mailing list would be a valuable resource.  Personally, I don't mind being flooded with e-mails from this particular list - there is always the option of not reading them or simply deleting them.  If anything, I would like to see the list being utilized more rather than less.  For many mailing lists, members have the option of signing up for a daily digest - is this possible for this particular list?    
 
Coming back to Monica's question, my take is the following.  Deciding whether or not to take on insurance for a particular project should ultimately be governed by questions such as these: 

(1) Has the organization/person behind the project insisted on the insurance?  If they don't make an issue out of it, there is no point in the consultant making an issue out of it.

(2)  If having insurance is something the client insists on, is the total value of the project large enough to justify (and make up for) the added expense of taking on general liability insurance or errors and omissions insurance?  When I last checked, the cost of the errors and omissions insurance hovered somewhere around the $10,000 mark per year - it's possible that this amount could be a lot smaller depending on the insurance provider and availability of group rates, but presumably still sizable.  For a self-employed consultant, this type of investment may simply not make good business sense.      

(3)  If the project comes with such high pressure around the issues of confidentiality and insurance, is walking away from it a possible option? 

(4)  Can the person/organization behind the project wave the request for insurance?  If they really want to do business with the consultant, chances are that they will be willing to compromise on this issue.  

(5)  Does confidentiality alone warrant the need for insurance? Probably not.  If the consultant's work is included in a report that will be subject to public consultation and that will be used to make decisions concerning the public, the consultant may feel the need for insurance even though the client would be willing to wave that request.  
  
(6)  The best form of insurance is self-insurance.  If we do our work dilligently and carefully, chances are we will not need to be protected against ourselves.  

Kind regards, 

Isabella


-------------------------------------------
Isabella Ghement
Ghement Statistical Consulting Co.
www.ghement.ca
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 19:38
From: Michael Chernick
Subject: professional liability insurance

I decided to post this message to complain about all the messages I am getting from the egroup on this subject of professional liability insurance.  I think this is a personal question from Monica that is of no interest to me and probably most of the members of the egroups.  Yet because of the replies we are all innudated with this discussion.  Now that I have wasted my time on this I will add to the discussion and apologize to the other disinterested members who get this.

I have been doing private consulting for over six years including work as an expert witness and befroe seeing the thread I never even thought about professional liability insurance.  The most informative part of the discussion has been the two experts who explained why it is a waste of time.

I would not get such insurance because I think proving malpractice in statistical analysis would be very difficult.  How could anyone make a case of malpractice.  Neither a judge nor a jury would be able to be convinced even if there were a legitimate case.  If you follow accepted methods in the literature and you are suitably trained in statistics I can't see what there is to worry about.  If it is violating confidentiality then make sure you don't do that.  Am I missing something.

Please don't get into a big discussion about conducting surveys to find out if anyone was ever sued.  If some of you are interested in continuing the discussion, please do it outside of the egroup!

-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------

My worst fears are realized not only did my comments add another intrusive email but it spawned two responses and I felt encouraged to write on it again.  Of course it is sometimes difficult to tell whether a topic will be of general interest to a group or just a small subset and after a run of these it is easy to recognize the emails and just delete them.  But we should all keep in mind that when we signed up for this we agreed to follow a few rules.  In my case I discovered that I violated the rules when I advertised a courrse I was teaching for a commercial outfit.

To respond to Isabel.  I think there is recourse when a thread appears to include rather personal stuff suchas asking if I should get insurance or looking for a roomate at a conference.  First of all the system gives you a mechanism to just respond personally to the author.  I think in this case those who wanted to make personal recommendations should have taken that option.

Ironically I am starting to get interested in this topic and I am afraid that everytime I write something I will provoke other comments which are actually interesting to me.  I do private consulting as a side business and so it may be that I am less affected by issues that may be legitimate concerns to people who run larger consulting businesses.  I am still baffled as to why there is so much discussion and interest on this particular question.  Maybe someone has a good explanation.

The other thing about discussion threads.  I do reviews for amazon and have often been involved in discussion threads on many topics there.  A few years ago one of my fellow amazon reviewers started a thread on Major League Baseball and it has developed a life of its own.  It goes strong during the baseball season when we all brag about the success of our teams or lament their failures.  It is very lively because among the group we have three avid Red Sox fans and I am a big Yankee fan. One Phillies fan and one who is a Dodger fan but also supports the Angels.  Until recently Phillies fans were suffering much like Cub fans and of course prior to 2004 the same was true for the Red Sox fans.  Because there are a lot of regulars on the baseball thread they are not shy about changing topics to football, soccer, golf, basketball or the olympics. As these egroups are more like professional interest groups I would not expect these threads to last long or sway from topic.  But people are always free to take things in whatever direction they want and others may follow.

I obviously got off topic.  But to get back to the topic another suggestion I have that might help prevent flood of emails of obscure interest would be that most of us have our contact informationlisted in the membership directory and so if you wish to address a member you could search for them in the membership directory and send them a personal email.  The same could be done if you wanted to continue a discussion with 2 or more members that responded on the thread.  So there are existing ways to move from the egroup to smaller groups. 
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 20:45
From: Isabella Ghement
Subject: professional liability insurance

Hi everyone,

Michael's e-mail does raise the following legitimate question:  What is the purpose of this mailing list? 

The sporadic e-mails that I receive from this list seem to suggest that perhaps many of us (including myself) are not aware of how exactly we are supposed to use this list.  Is the list meant for personal or impersonal questions? Questions that appeal to most of us or just a few of us? 

A while ago, I was hoping that this list might be a good place to bounce off ideas about statistical problems we are working on - the fact that no one is doing this at the moment discouraged me from pursuing this avenue.  What if one of us would need advice on how to expand his/her consulting business, marketing niche, range of products on offer, etc.?  Would these be considered personal questions as well? Chances are there is a wealth of information waiting to be tapped by those in need if only they knew they could do it. 

A lot of us practice statistical consulting in relative isolation - having a sounding board in the form of a mailing list would be a valuable resource.  Personally, I don't mind being flooded with e-mails from this particular list - there is always the option of not reading them or simply deleting them.  If anything, I would like to see the list being utilized more rather than less.  For many mailing lists, members have the option of signing up for a daily digest - is this possible for this particular list?    
 
Coming back to Monica's question, my take is the following.  Deciding whether or not to take on insurance for a particular project should ultimately be governed by questions such as these: 

(1) Has the organization/person behind the project insisted on the insurance?  If they don't make an issue out of it, there is no point in the consultant making an issue out of it.

(2)  If having insurance is something the client insists on, is the total value of the project large enough to justify (and make up for) the added expense of taking on general liability insurance or errors and omissions insurance?  When I last checked, the cost of the errors and omissions insurance hovered somewhere around the $10,000 mark per year - it's possible that this amount could be a lot smaller depending on the insurance provider and availability of group rates, but presumably still sizable.  For a self-employed consultant, this type of investment may simply not make good business sense.      

(3)  If the project comes with such high pressure around the issues of confidentiality and insurance, is walking away from it a possible option? 

(4)  Can the person/organization behind the project wave the request for insurance?  If they really want to do business with the consultant, chances are that they will be willing to compromise on this issue.  

(5)  Does confidentiality alone warrant the need for insurance? Probably not.  If the consultant's work is included in a report that will be subject to public consultation and that will be used to make decisions concerning the public, the consultant may feel the need for insurance even though the client would be willing to wave that request.  
  
(6)  The best form of insurance is self-insurance.  If we do our work dilligently and carefully, chances are we will not need to be protected against ourselves.  

Kind regards, 

Isabella


-------------------------------------------
Isabella Ghement
Ghement Statistical Consulting Co.
www.ghement.ca
-------------------------------------------

A modest suggestion: Anyone feeling that the email volume is drowning them should explore the links to the right. A subscription can be modified to receive a daily digest. That would reduce the volume to one email per day.

In my company, discussion about recent changes in HIPAA rules concluded that now individuals are liable (for millions, potentially) if HIPAA-protected data are disclosed. (Previously, only organizations -- hospitals, CROs, universities, etc. were liable.) If this were to follow the litigious path of other liability issues, one can easily imagine a situation where sensitive records appear on the internet or in a print expose without it being clear who leaked them, and everyone who touched the data being included as defendants in a lawsuit. Even if the statistician has been extremely careful, she might need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to defend herself. Of course, if the insurance costs $10,000 per year, it's a wash.

-------------------------------------------
Patrick Crockett
Director of Statistical Sciences
SRA International
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 20:45
From: Isabella Ghement
Subject: professional liability insurance

(5)  Does confidentiality alone warrant the need for insurance? Probably not.  If the consultant's work is included in a report that will be subject to public consultation and that will be used to make decisions concerning the public, the consultant may feel the need for insurance even though the client would be willing to wave that request.  
  
(6)  The best form of insurance is self-insurance.  If we do our work dilligently and carefully, chances are we will not need to be protected against ourselves.  

-------------------------------------------
Abdel Amoussa
-------------------------------------------
I think the best way is to check through insurance companies and those who
have encountered this kind of problem in the past. I do not have any idea.





Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2010 11:02
From: Patrick Crockett
Subject: professional liability insurance

In my company, discussion about recent changes in HIPAA rules concluded that now individuals are liable (for millions, potentially) if HIPAA-protected data are disclosed. (Previously, only organizations -- hospitals, CROs, universities, etc. were liable.) If this were to follow the litigious path of other liability issues, one can easily imagine a situation where sensitive records appear on the internet or in a print expose without it being clear who leaked them, and everyone who touched the data being included as defendants in a lawsuit. Even if the statistician has been extremely careful, she might need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to defend herself. Of course, if the insurance costs $10,000 per year, it's a wash.

-------------------------------------------
Patrick Crockett
Director of Statistical Sciences
SRA International
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 20:45
From: Isabella Ghement
Subject: professional liability insurance

(5)  Does confidentiality alone warrant the need for insurance? Probably not.  If the consultant's work is included in a report that will be subject to public consultation and that will be used to make decisions concerning the public, the consultant may feel the need for insurance even though the client would be willing to wave that request.  
  
(6)  The best form of insurance is self-insurance.  If we do our work dilligently and carefully, chances are we will not need to be protected against ourselves.  

An additional risk for statisticians might potentially occur if they serve on a DSMB. Suppose the DSMB declines to stop a study halfway through the trial and then some really bad things happen during the last half of the study. I bet a lot of those patients in the last half might consider suing all the members of the DSMB. I don't have any personal experience to relate, though, as I have never been sued, either as a statistician or as a member of a DSMB.

-------------------------------------------
Stephen Simon
Independent Statistical Consultant
P. Mean Consulting
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2010 11:02
From: Patrick Crockett
Subject: professional liability insurance

In my company, discussion about recent changes in HIPAA rules concluded that now individuals are liable (for millions, potentially) if HIPAA-protected data are disclosed. (Previously, only organizations -- hospitals, CROs, universities, etc. were liable.) If this were to follow the litigious path of other liability issues, one can easily imagine a situation where sensitive records appear on the internet or in a print expose without it being clear who leaked them, and everyone who touched the data being included as defendants in a lawsuit. Even if the statistician has been extremely careful, she might need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to defend herself. Of course, if the insurance costs $10,000 per year, it's a wash.

-------------------------------------------
Patrick Crockett
Director of Statistical Sciences
SRA International
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 20:45
From: Isabella Ghement
Subject: professional liability insurance

(5)  Does confidentiality alone warrant the need for insurance? Probably not.  If the consultant's work is included in a report that will be subject to public consultation and that will be used to make decisions concerning the public, the consultant may feel the need for insurance even though the client would be willing to wave that request.  
  
(6)  The best form of insurance is self-insurance.  If we do our work dilligently and carefully, chances are we will not need to be protected against ourselves.  

-------------------------------------------
This discussion has certainly been informative!  Perhaps someone can summarize it into an article for the CNSL newsletter, and in that way share it with others not on this eGroup.  I'm been fortunate to not be sued and only get as close as needing to sign some confidentiality agreements, when working as a subcontractor to another contractor who had a contract with a large firm having proprietary interests.  

We are statisticians.  We are suppose to be trained in how to make decisions in the face of uncertainty.  To do that we need to access risk.  But much of this speculation worries about the highly improbable event.  When has anyone on a DMSB been sued?  Suing every member of the board seems to me to be crazy even in the face of our litigious society.  In fact the DMSB should be immune to litigation.  It is tough enough to get good committees.  The scenario that the board might allow a trial to go to completion and a serious problem is discovered later is very plausible.  But the board makes decisions based on the available data at the time and if there is no evidence of a serious AE when they review the data they have done nothing wrong.  Knowing the high quality of DMSBs I doubt that they would ignore data showing serious problems.  Can we stop the silly speculation?  I am becoming embarrassed by it!
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2010 09:24
From: Stephen Simon
Subject: professional liability insurance

An additional risk for statisticians might potentially occur if they serve on a DSMB. Suppose the DSMB declines to stop a study halfway through the trial and then some really bad things happen during the last half of the study. I bet a lot of those patients in the last half might consider suing all the members of the DSMB. I don't have any personal experience to relate, though, as I have never been sued, either as a statistician or as a member of a DSMB.

-------------------------------------------
Stephen Simon
Independent Statistical Consultant
P. Mean Consulting
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2010 11:02
From: Patrick Crockett
Subject: professional liability insurance

In my company, discussion about recent changes in HIPAA rules concluded that now individuals are liable (for millions, potentially) if HIPAA-protected data are disclosed. (Previously, only organizations -- hospitals, CROs, universities, etc. were liable.) If this were to follow the litigious path of other liability issues, one can easily imagine a situation where sensitive records appear on the internet or in a print expose without it being clear who leaked them, and everyone who touched the data being included as defendants in a lawsuit. Even if the statistician has been extremely careful, she might need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to defend herself. Of course, if the insurance costs $10,000 per year, it's a wash.

-------------------------------------------
Patrick Crockett
Director of Statistical Sciences
SRA International
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 20:45
From: Isabella Ghement
Subject: professional liability insurance

(5)  Does confidentiality alone warrant the need for insurance? Probably not.  If the consultant's work is included in a report that will be subject to public consultation and that will be used to make decisions concerning the public, the consultant may feel the need for insurance even though the client would be willing to wave that request.  
  
(6)  The best form of insurance is self-insurance.  If we do our work dilligently and carefully, chances are we will not need to be protected against ourselves.  

This journal article may be of interest regarding the DMC comment:

Clinical Trials 2004; 1: 525-531

Liability issues for data monitoring committee members

David L DeMetsa, Thomas R Flemingb, Frank Rockholdc, Barry Massied, Thomas Merchantc,

Alan Meisele, Barbara Mishkinf, Janet Wittes g, David Stumph, Robert Califf i

To quote from the article by Dave DeMets, Tom Fleming, Frank Rockhold.

Janet Wittes and others:

 

"The language currently used in many consulting agreements  inappropriately puts DMC members at risk for lawsuits, or at least puts them in a position where  protecting their personal financial interests could conflict with their mandate to protect the interests of subjects  and the integrity of science.

-------------------------------------------
Michael Nessly
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2010 09:24
From: Stephen Simon
Subject: professional liability insurance

An additional risk for statisticians might potentially occur if they serve on a DSMB. Suppose the DSMB declines to stop a study halfway through the trial and then some really bad things happen during the last half of the study. I bet a lot of those patients in the last half might consider suing all the members of the DSMB. I don't have any personal experience to relate, though, as I have never been sued, either as a statistician or as a member of a DSMB.

-------------------------------------------
Stephen Simon
Independent Statistical Consultant
P. Mean Consulting
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 07-04-2010 11:02
From: Patrick Crockett
Subject: professional liability insurance

In my company, discussion about recent changes in HIPAA rules concluded that now individuals are liable (for millions, potentially) if HIPAA-protected data are disclosed. (Previously, only organizations -- hospitals, CROs, universities, etc. were liable.) If this were to follow the litigious path of other liability issues, one can easily imagine a situation where sensitive records appear on the internet or in a print expose without it being clear who leaked them, and everyone who touched the data being included as defendants in a lawsuit. Even if the statistician has been extremely careful, she might need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to defend herself. Of course, if the insurance costs $10,000 per year, it's a wash.

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Patrick Crockett
Director of Statistical Sciences
SRA International
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-03-2010 20:45
From: Isabella Ghement
Subject: professional liability insurance

(5)  Does confidentiality alone warrant the need for insurance? Probably not.  If the consultant's work is included in a report that will be subject to public consultation and that will be used to make decisions concerning the public, the consultant may feel the need for insurance even though the client would be willing to wave that request.  
  
(6)  The best form of insurance is self-insurance.  If we do our work dilligently and carefully, chances are we will not need to be protected against ourselves.  

In response to Michael Chernick's complaint, I think the discussion of professional liability insurance is very relevant to a consultants' forum. I ran a statistical consulting business in the UK for over 20 years, and while there may be differences between here and the USA, I imagine there are greater similarities. When I began, I was advised to take out liability insurance and did so at a cost of around 1000 pounds per annum for cover of 250,000 pounds for about ten years. I obtained the insurance through the Institute of Statisticians, having had much higher quotes from several other sources. No client ever caused me to claim on the insurance and only a few ever enquired whether I had it, though some did.

I eventually gave up the insurance when the insurance company redesigned its annual renewal form and discovered that I was doing a small amount of work for a company in the USA. Because of this they wanted to make a 50% increase in the premium, as they regarded American clients as bringing a greater risk of litigation.

I continued without professional indemnity insurance for several years until I was offered a contract for a large amount of work that insisted on my having insurance for 10 million pounds. Being keen to secure the contract, I took out insurance for 5 million pounds through an arrangement between the Royal Statistical Society and an insurance broker, which cost me about 300 pounds per year (and was with the same insurance company who had previously offered to charge me five times as much for a twentieth of the cover).

My advice would be that the risk of being sued is extremely small, but you need to consider it. (My impression is that the risk is possibly greater if you are working as a subcontractor for a contractor who themselves might be sued.) However, the effect of being sued could be devastating, so if you can obtain indemnity insurance at a reasonable price, it is worth having, particularly if you come across clients who ask you if you have it. The insurance companies have no idea what we do or what the real risks are, so prices can vary enormously. You are likely to get the best value from a scheme negotiated by a professional organisation like the Royal Statistical Society here or those mentioned by earlier respondents. If they do not already do it, perhaps this is an service that the ASA could usefully investigate.

David
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David Thompson
Senior Biostatistician
Cmed Clinical Research Services
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I give up.  This silly thread is going to last.  But I do want to say in response to David that I was not saying that the topic was not relevant.  Of course it is relevant.  I just found that it was something that was more personal and only interesting to a select few.  I still am annoyed at some of these responses which speculate about liability when no one has even mentioned one case where a statistician was sued.  The focus has been on how to get insurance, how expensive insurance is, and a few comments about why it may be foolish to get insurance.
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Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-05-2010 05:33
From: David Thompson
Subject: professional liability insurance

In response to Michael Chernick's complaint, I think the discussion of professional liability insurance is very relevant to a consultants' forum. I ran a statistical consulting business in the UK for over 20 years, and while there may be differences between here and the USA, I imagine there are greater similarities. When I began, I was advised to take out liability insurance and did so at a cost of around 1000 pounds per annum for cover of 250,000 pounds for about ten years. I obtained the insurance through the Institute of Statisticians, having had much higher quotes from several other sources. No client ever caused me to claim on the insurance and only a few ever enquired whether I had it, though some did.

I eventually gave up the insurance when the insurance company redesigned its annual renewal form and discovered that I was doing a small amount of work for a company in the USA. Because of this they wanted to make a 50% increase in the premium, as they regarded American clients as bringing a greater risk of litigation.

I continued without professional indemnity insurance for several years until I was offered a contract for a large amount of work that insisted on my having insurance for 10 million pounds. Being keen to secure the contract, I took out insurance for 5 million pounds through an arrangement between the Royal Statistical Society and an insurance broker, which cost me about 300 pounds per year (and was with the same insurance company who had previously offered to charge me five times as much for a twentieth of the cover).

My advice would be that the risk of being sued is extremely small, but you need to consider it. (My impression is that the risk is possibly greater if you are working as a subcontractor for a contractor who themselves might be sued.) However, the effect of being sued could be devastating, so if you can obtain indemnity insurance at a reasonable price, it is worth having, particularly if you come across clients who ask you if you have it. The insurance companies have no idea what we do or what the real risks are, so prices can vary enormously. You are likely to get the best value from a scheme negotiated by a professional organisation like the Royal Statistical Society here or those mentioned by earlier respondents. If they do not already do it, perhaps this is an service that the ASA could usefully investigate.

David
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David Thompson
Senior Biostatistician
Cmed Clinical Research Services
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Whether or not it's been perceived as "silly" or "more personal and only interesting to a select few"--- I think most of us would agree that our willingness to reach out and offer our views to Heather, a member of our field, when she had a need, has been useful. Yes, there's been a lot of comments on this topic. Psychologically speaking, it may have been one that those commenting "identified" with and implicitly thought a lawsuit could happen to them, however low the probability, as we now have heard. If this were a moderated list serv, the moderator would probably consider "the thread closed" and time for new topics to be raised.

Milton Goldsamt

Personally, I have enjoyed this discussion. It has been both informative and amusing. The consulting statisticians so seldom hear from each other. I was interested, for example, to see the number of statisticians in private practice.