Discussion: View Thread

Does anyone have any experience with the value of accreditation for statisticians or the lack thereof?  I'd be interested in some stories of experience with or without the accreditation. There are many, many opinions out there, but does anyone have some "data"--i.e., actual experience?

Best wishes,

Nayak



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Nayak Polissar
Consultant
The Mountain Whisper Light
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I've consulted with two companies in the last two years, one small and one moderate in size.  Neither asked about accreditation.


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Robert Gallavan
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In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:01
From: Robert Gallavan
Subject: Accreditation


I've consulted with two companies in the last two years, one small and one moderate in size.  Neither asked about accreditation.


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Robert Gallavan
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William Fairley
Senior Statistician and President
Analysis & Inference, Inc.
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In my experience Larry Muenz' email of 10 minutes ago sums up the status on accreditation outside the biomedical area as well. That is, I haven't had anyone ask about accreditation, and I have no reason to think it bears much if any weight now--but that could change.





Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:25
From: Larry Muenz
Subject: Accreditation

In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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Worth quoting Sally Morton on Accreditation

http://magazine.amstat.org/blog/2009/09/01/accreditationsep09/

....Morton reiterated that such accreditation is voluntary; it is not the same as certification, which, in other professions, may be required before one can practice. "ASA accreditation is for those who feel it will help them professionally," she said. "As is demonstrated by similar programs offered by statistical societies in other countries, not everyone will need or want to be accredited."...

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Chris Barker, Ph.D.
President - San Francisco Bay Area Chapter of the American Statistical Association
www,barkerstats.com
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:40
From: William Fairley
Subject: Accreditation



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William Fairley
Senior Statistician and President
Analysis & Inference, Inc.
-------------------------------------------

In my experience Larry Muenz' email of 10 minutes ago sums up the status on accreditation outside the biomedical area as well. That is, I haven't had anyone ask about accreditation, and I have no reason to think it bears much if any weight now--but that could change.





Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:25
From: Larry Muenz
Subject: Accreditation

In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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 Lie William and Larry, I have never been asked for Accreditation by any of my clients.  My clients are more concerned with whether I can do the work and not whether I hold any accreditation. 

I am not a big opponent of accreditation.  I have worked with many, many "SAS" programmers who have passed the SAS certification process, but who I would classify as beginning SAS programmers and barely that at all.   It is easy for anyone who has gone through graduate school, to study for an accreditation test, and pass it.  But actually applying that knowledge in the working world is a whole different matter.  I have seen this with Engineers, Nurses, auto mechanics, etc...   I, for one, am a little skeptical when someone tells me they are "accredited".  I think accreditation is a "warm fuzzy", that doesn't correlate with whether someone can do the job.  I know this is a big deal to many in the ASA, so sorry for stepping on toes.  I guess having seen what happens with the SAS certification process has made me very skeptical about whether it really means someone can do the job or not. 

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Rebecca Hoagland
Consulting Statistician
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:40
From: William Fairley
Subject: Accreditation



-------------------------------------------
William Fairley
Senior Statistician and President
Analysis & Inference, Inc.
-------------------------------------------

In my experience Larry Muenz' email of 10 minutes ago sums up the status on accreditation outside the biomedical area as well. That is, I haven't had anyone ask about accreditation, and I have no reason to think it bears much if any weight now--but that could change.





Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:25
From: Larry Muenz
Subject: Accreditation

In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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I want to add my two cents to this.  As I said earlier I got accreditation because I think it might have value in my consulting business and might be worth having on my resume. The ASA has only had accreditation for a short period of time.  I think Canada and the UK have longer experience and thay could probably offer better information than what we've heard so far.  With only three months experience with accreditation I have seen nothing pro or con.  I don't see how it can hurt and the process is fairly easy.  A committee approves you and I suspect that anyone with decent credentials will get approved.

Clients don't ask about accreditation.  But they probably do not know that it exists.  Our peers will be able to judge us on the basis of our publications and other work.  But a potential client lacking in knowledge of statistics cannot measure us the way our colleagues can.  So I thinbk having accreditation could be an advantage, but you have to mention it and not wait for them to ask.

All this is speculative on my part right now.  All the clients I have gotten in the past have been through past work interaction or from being discovered on the internet through LinkedIn or my amazon book reviews.  I have not gotten any help from accreditation yet, but we will see about the future.

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Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 15:09
From: Rebecca Hoagland
Subject: Accreditation

 Lie William and Larry, I have never been asked for Accreditation by any of my clients.  My clients are more concerned with whether I can do the work and not whether I hold any accreditation. 

I am not a big opponent of accreditation.  I have worked with many, many "SAS" programmers who have passed the SAS certification process, but who I would classify as beginning SAS programmers and barely that at all.   It is easy for anyone who has gone through graduate school, to study for an accreditation test, and pass it.  But actually applying that knowledge in the working world is a whole different matter.  I have seen this with Engineers, Nurses, auto mechanics, etc...   I, for one, am a little skeptical when someone tells me they are "accredited".  I think accreditation is a "warm fuzzy", that doesn't correlate with whether someone can do the job.  I know this is a big deal to many in the ASA, so sorry for stepping on toes.  I guess having seen what happens with the SAS certification process has made me very skeptical about whether it really means someone can do the job or not. 

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Rebecca Hoagland
Consulting Statistician
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I would be interested to hear about the FDA aspect of one's credentials and pertinent experience, especially how statistical consultants educate themselves in regards to the FDA regulations. My experience has been that often the statistical concepts and methods utilized in the regulations are "no rocket science" statistically but the situation requires one to find and study some very detailed guideline documents. For example, one of my recent clients was involved with the FDA and required help with certain CLSI (Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute) standards. So my question is: do people educate themselves for the FDA-related work through a formal learning (e.g. courses in FDA guidelines and regulations) or through self-study? I would be interested to know what resources people use. Also, I presume that the guidelines and regulations change over time and one needs to keep up.

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Moni Neradilek
Statistical Consultant
The Mountain-Whisper Light Statistics
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:25
From: Larry Muenz
Subject: Accreditation

In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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"Educating about FDA requirements", is somewhat company dependent. And it is an ongoing process.

 As a Pharma statistician, you can always contact someone in regulatory or QA to find out particular regulations /company SOP's that apply in one's area.

Generally, you should read the ICH guidelines, and any of the various statistics related guidelines that FDA issues.
For example if you are working on adaptive trials, you would read the FDA guideline on adaptive trials.

When I work with the Development side of the company, I'm required to read the companies - Statistics,  some Data Management and some Clinical /Safety reporting SOPs' in the first week or two after starting. And often there are  short quizzes on the SOP.  You should always keep a record of what you read/tested on, even if the company didn't require you to keep a record.

One company I worked for, required one to record "training", for example if you went to a statistics short course.

FDA is one of several  regulatory agencies,  and there are guidelines and regulation for countries outside the U.S.

CLISA as far as I can tell, is not part of FDA per se.

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Chris Barker, Ph.D.
President - San Francisco Bay Area Chapter of the American Statistical Association
www,barkerstats.com
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 15:05
From: Moni Neradilek
Subject: Accreditation

I would be interested to hear about the FDA aspect of one's credentials and pertinent experience, especially how statistical consultants educate themselves in regards to the FDA regulations. My experience has been that often the statistical concepts and methods utilized in the regulations are "no rocket science" statistically but the situation requires one to find and study some very detailed guideline documents. For example, one of my recent clients was involved with the FDA and required help with certain CLSI (Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute) standards. So my question is: do people educate themselves for the FDA-related work through a formal learning (e.g. courses in FDA guidelines and regulations) or through self-study? I would be interested to know what resources people use. Also, I presume that the guidelines and regulations change over time and one needs to keep up.

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Moni Neradilek
Statistical Consultant
The Mountain-Whisper Light Statistics
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:25
From: Larry Muenz
Subject: Accreditation

In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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The first point is that I never try to sell a client on my regulatory expertise.  That's a distinct profession, perhaps with some legal implications.  I have never had a course in regulatory law although I've read many articles about the regulatory process (some are Internet-accessible without charge) as well as FDA guidance documents.  And, of course, I've worked for years in the FDA "ecosystem."  In my opinion, regulatory strategy is not something a statistician should offer.  It's really a different way of thinking.  What the clients look for is familiarity with the process, and an awareness of what FDA statisticians (many of whom are extremely smart) are likely to want in a protocol or report.  FDA statisticians work in a bureaucratized environment that, for example, asks that statistical assumptions be validated, not just plausible or commonly accepted.  Satisfying that requirement, and others, is where the experience of working with FDA-regulated industries becomes helpful.  In my view, you will get work from FDA-regulated industries by being a good statistician, not by trying to keep up with the FDA's evolving requirements.

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Larry Muenz
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 15:05
From: Moni Neradilek
Subject: Accreditation

I would be interested to hear about the FDA aspect of one's credentials and pertinent experience, especially how statistical consultants educate themselves in regards to the FDA regulations. My experience has been that often the statistical concepts and methods utilized in the regulations are "no rocket science" statistically but the situation requires one to find and study some very detailed guideline documents. For example, one of my recent clients was involved with the FDA and required help with certain CLSI (Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute) standards. So my question is: do people educate themselves for the FDA-related work through a formal learning (e.g. courses in FDA guidelines and regulations) or through self-study? I would be interested to know what resources people use. Also, I presume that the guidelines and regulations change over time and one needs to keep up.

-------------------------------------------
Moni Neradilek
Statistical Consultant
The Mountain-Whisper Light Statistics
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:25
From: Larry Muenz
Subject: Accreditation

In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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This is a real good question.  Most large companies provide presentations, SOPs and courses on regulatory requirements in the statistical and clinical areas.  They also send you to various DIA or other courses - plenty around.  I used to be a director of a real nice course for New Statisticians within the Pharmaceutical Industry about 10-15 years ago.  We even had a half dozen FDA statisticians helping us give this course.  Also most large companies provide new statisticians with a mentor.  It has been my experience that it usually takes a couple of years for a statistician to get up on the learning curve and be able to act independently.  I've mentored a lot of statisticians and I have noticed that many of the the MS's have no fear and many of the PhD's are much more careful. 

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Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 15:05
From: Moni Neradilek
Subject: Accreditation

I would be interested to hear about the FDA aspect of one's credentials and pertinent experience, especially how statistical consultants educate themselves in regards to the FDA regulations. My experience has been that often the statistical concepts and methods utilized in the regulations are "no rocket science" statistically but the situation requires one to find and study some very detailed guideline documents. For example, one of my recent clients was involved with the FDA and required help with certain CLSI (Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute) standards. So my question is: do people educate themselves for the FDA-related work through a formal learning (e.g. courses in FDA guidelines and regulations) or through self-study? I would be interested to know what resources people use. Also, I presume that the guidelines and regulations change over time and one needs to keep up.

-------------------------------------------
Moni Neradilek
Statistical Consultant
The Mountain-Whisper Light Statistics
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:25
From: Larry Muenz
Subject: Accreditation

In 25 years of full-time biostatistical consulting, no potential client (denominator = 100+) has ever asked me about accreditation, or even used the word.  There's no evidence that they know this exists, or care about it.  They care a little about academic credentials, but primarily about pertinent experience, often with FDA-regulated products and with the FDA itself.  Of course, accreditation may increase in importance, but that hasn't happened yet.  (Or, it may be more important in non-medical areas of statistics.)  At this point, in the biomedical arena, only other statisticians would care, and that is of some importance, but mainly for pride, not for getting work.

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Larry Muenz
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I agree with Robert, I have also never been asked about accreditation, but it's a new idea and probably our customers don't even know about it yet.  SAS accreditation has been around for quite a while and I also don't see people asking for it.  However, I think the accreditations will look nice on your resume or CV espeically for new folks.

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Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:01
From: Robert Gallavan
Subject: Accreditation


I've consulted with two companies in the last two years, one small and one moderate in size.  Neither asked about accreditation.


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Robert Gallavan
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Hi -

I just finished the application (the last reference was sent in over the weekend).  The process is fairly straightforward; most of the required information is what is in a standard resume.  The rest of the process is beneficial because you have to, or at least should, think about why you are a statistician and why you should be accredited.  It is a good chance to 'take stock' of your professional life.

From the ASA website you can contact statisticians who have been through the process who will help and advise you.

Many professions have a form of accreditation; famously there are accreditations or certifications for physicians, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and others.  Recently, toxicologists and auto mechanics have set up certifications.  I am a strong believer in accreditations or certifications, and I am pleased that the ASA has initiated the process.  I believe that accreditation will promote the statistical profession and will help discriminate those who have reasonable training and experience from those who are less qualified.

It is my opinion that statisticians who are serious about the profession should apply for accreditation to show that the profession cares about quality (or whatever the current jargon is) and to give the Accreditation Committee a wide set of examples to 'fine tune' the qualification process.  It is important for the Committee to see the difficult cases and exceptions early on so that they can set the rules early. 

Good luck,

Mark

 

 

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Mark Nicolich
Statistician
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The original poster asked for experience with the value of accreditation.  But thanks for the pep rally.  I, too, welcome our new, self-appointed, Statistics Overlords.  What could possibly go wrong?

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Robert Gallavan
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Original Message:
Sent: 09-06-2011 14:10
From: Mark Nicolich
Subject: Accreditation


Hi -

I just finished the application (the last reference was sent in over the weekend).  The process is fairly straightforward; most of the required information is what is in a standard resume.  The rest of the process is beneficial because you have to, or at least should, think about why you are a statistician and why you should be accredited.  It is a good chance to 'take stock' of your professional life.

From the ASA website you can contact statisticians who have been through the process who will help and advise you.

Many professions have a form of accreditation; famously there are accreditations or certifications for physicians, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and others.  Recently, toxicologists and auto mechanics have set up certifications.  I am a strong believer in accreditations or certifications, and I am pleased that the ASA has initiated the process.  I believe that accreditation will promote the statistical profession and will help discriminate those who have reasonable training and experience from those who are less qualified.

It is my opinion that statisticians who are serious about the profession should apply for accreditation to show that the profession cares about quality (or whatever the current jargon is) and to give the Accreditation Committee a wide set of examples to 'fine tune' the qualification process.  It is important for the Committee to see the difficult cases and exceptions early on so that they can set the rules early. 

Good luck,

Mark

 

 

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Mark Nicolich
Statistician
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I suspect that accreditation may make provide some objective documentation that makes it easier for your boss to get you promoted, and I wonder if anyone has asked for a raise after getting accredited. I'm not accredited, and like everyone else so far, I must admit that no one has stopped to ask me about this. Maybe it's because accreditation has not been available in the U.S. until just recently. Maybe it's because people consider my Ph.D. as sufficient proof of my skill level.

I don't have any hard data, and I suspect that the program may be new enough that it is impossible to get good hard data. When the consulting section does a new salary survey, they should ask about accreditation and see what difference it makes in consulting rates. I know that among independent consultants, there is a $44 per hour differential between a Master and a PhD. I would be very surprised if accreditation had anywhere close to this level of differential.

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Stephen Simon
Independent Statistical Consultant
P. Mean Consulting
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