Discussion: View Thread

I have been seeking an entry-level consulting position for about 6 months now. Most posting I find on larger job engines are for larger (100+ employees) consulting firms/companies and usually require the candidate to have some internship or other experience. I would be happy to begin my career at a larger firm and I would not be choosy in an entry position, but I would be happiest in a small (20-50 employees) firm. Does anyone know:

Consulting is a rather large and amorphous field. It is rare for a consulting project to require only statistical consulting (I assume that's the type of consulting you mean). In general there will be other professionals involved (finance, mortgage, telecom, physicians, epidemiologists, economists or health economists, etc. and almost always a database manager and/or programmer). Most smaller consulting companies do not have enough statistical work to have statisticians on staff. Rather, they hire a consultant when they need one. Thus, the consulting companies hiring full-time statisticians (especially at the entry level) are usually bigger and established.

Entry level positions in any consulting field are hard to come by.  The reason consultants are hired is because they have extensive expertise pulled over many years.  If you're fresh out of school, your best bet is to find analyst level jobs within the consulting firms that interest you.

If you feel you have extensive expertise, the best way to market yourself is to demonstrate your expertise.  You can do this by writing articles, blog, teach a class, etc.  And keep a link to them on your LinkedIn page and other professional networking sites. 

Carlos gave you good advice too.  Pursue that angle.  And nothing beats good, old-fashioned networking.  Attend events, seminars, etc., and learn what statistical needs are out there.  To really be a good networker and develop a strong consulting clientele, let me recommend two books that have helped me:

1. Endless Referrals, by Bob Burg
2. Get Clients Now!, by C.J. Hayden.

Good luck! 

-------------------------------------------
Alex Caffarini
President
Analysights, LLC
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-19-2011 23:01
From: Carlos Alzola
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)


Consulting is a rather large and amorphous field. It is rare for a consulting project to require only statistical consulting (I assume that's the type of consulting you mean). In general there will be other professionals involved (finance, mortgage, telecom, physicians, epidemiologists, economists or health economists, etc. and almost always a database manager and/or programmer). Most smaller consulting companies do not have enough statistical work to have statisticians on staff. Rather, they hire a consultant when they need one. Thus, the consulting companies hiring full-time statisticians (especially at the entry level) are usually bigger and established.

Your best bet for the kind of position you want may be in the social networks (check LinkedIn), but do not reject the larger companies outright. There is a lot to be learned there.

Just my 0.02
-------------------------------------------
Carlos Alzola
Senior Biostatistician
Data Insights Inc.
-------------------------------------------

if you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with....(Stephen Sills)

I agree with the previous comments.  Sometimes you have to go someplace else to get where you want to be.
I would like to be on a beach and consult by Skype but it doesn't work that way.

The advantage of starting with large firms is the tremendous networking opportunity that comes with large numbers.  And, you don't have to stay there the rest of your life.

I would also like to support the idea of developing a general area of expertise (medicine, economics, banking, etc.) that is something you can become passionate about.  Most firms looking for consultants will favor those who have a demonstrated understanding of their business.  And, within general business areas there are also differences.  For example, in the medical field where I spend most of my consulting time device development engineers think differently and use terminology that is different from that of the physicians who may also be developing devices.  Understanding each of their differences in 'world view' can make you more valuable in helping them formulate measurable outcomes and in collecting data appropriate to answering questions that matter to them.

Keep at it.  Consulting is like fishing.  You keep throwing out the line and every now and then you get a bite.  Sometimes a big bite and sometimes you toss it back.  But you learn more every time.

-------------------------------------------
William Grant
Research Associate Professor
SUNY Upstate Medical University
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 08:00
From: Alex Caffarini
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Entry level positions in any consulting field are hard to come by.  The reason consultants are hired is because they have extensive expertise pulled over many years.  If you're fresh out of school, your best bet is to find analyst level jobs within the consulting firms that interest you.

If you feel you have extensive expertise, the best way to market yourself is to demonstrate your expertise.  You can do this by writing articles, blog, teach a class, etc.  And keep a link to them on your LinkedIn page and other professional networking sites. 

Carlos gave you good advice too.  Pursue that angle.  And nothing beats good, old-fashioned networking.  Attend events, seminars, etc., and learn what statistical needs are out there.  To really be a good networker and develop a strong consulting clientele, let me recommend two books that have helped me:

1. Endless Referrals, by Bob Burg
2. Get Clients Now!, by C.J. Hayden.

Good luck! 

-------------------------------------------
Alex Caffarini
President
Analysights, LLC
-------------------------------------------

This is great advice.  I think we should pull these comments together and publish them.

I was fortunate to get a job right out of school with big pharma and work closely with a talented group of statisticians for many years.  The hard part is not the statistics but the science.  I recall spending many hours in physician's offices being lectured about the disease process and also about the chemical structure of the compound.  I personally found this fascinating. I also taught evening stat classes during my first 10 years working as a statistician which I feel helped me hone my statistical consulting skills.

I retired 6 years ago and now have my own statistical consulting firm.  I get clients primarily from "word of mouth" and most of my clients were physicians I had previously worked with. I consult primarily in the clinical trial area and mostly in diabetes research.  (Talk about being narrow!)   I personally could not have been an independent consulting statistician or the only statistician at a company without these years of experience and support.  I'm sure there are some brilliant statistician out there that do not need these years of experience, but most of us need to take the time to develop these skills, just like a good attorney or scientist.

I wish you well in your search and don't forget to also look for a good mentor.

-------------------------------------------
Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 08:00
From: Alex Caffarini
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Entry level positions in any consulting field are hard to come by.  The reason consultants are hired is because they have extensive expertise pulled over many years.  If you're fresh out of school, your best bet is to find analyst level jobs within the consulting firms that interest you.

If you feel you have extensive expertise, the best way to market yourself is to demonstrate your expertise.  You can do this by writing articles, blog, teach a class, etc.  And keep a link to them on your LinkedIn page and other professional networking sites. 

Carlos gave you good advice too.  Pursue that angle.  And nothing beats good, old-fashioned networking.  Attend events, seminars, etc., and learn what statistical needs are out there.  To really be a good networker and develop a strong consulting clientele, let me recommend two books that have helped me:

1. Endless Referrals, by Bob Burg
2. Get Clients Now!, by C.J. Hayden.

Good luck! 

-------------------------------------------
Alex Caffarini
President
Analysights, LLC
-------------------------------------------

I am chiming in because I was reading and now think I can contribute something from my own experience.
When I saw the initial post saying why are there no entry level consulting positions in statistics.  I figured that really sounds like a oxymoron.  To consult you need experience and entry level means fresh out of school.  So you probably have no experience.  Clients need to make sure that the consultant can identify the riht problem and come up with a useful solution.  Very little work in consulting is textbook and often there are big dollars at stake.  I think Gerry Hahn's book based a lot on his experience at GE is a terrific read to get an understanding of what it takes to succeed in industry as a statistician. It is a Wiley paperback published in 2008 titled "The Role of Statistics in Business and Industry".  He and Necip are coming out with another one soon that I reviewed at Gerry's request.  It is even more relevant for the entry level statistician.

Just think about it.  Suppose you came out of business school and said why are there no entry level positions like Donald Trump's That would be laughable and to some extent so is this. On television you see people vying just to be his apprentice and the have strong credentials and go through the hardest interview we could imagine.

Well it is similar in statistics on a smaller scale.  Apprenticeship is an option.  Many good ideas have already been suggested.  In my experience I was a graduate student at Stanford many decades ago.  Students had research  fellowships and assistantships.  Although I didn't take this path many of the PhD students took the biostatistics option for funding.  At that time Brad Efron, Rupert Miller and Lincoln Moses had contracts.  They guided students and hooked them up with physicians in the medical school that needed their data analyzed.  Some led to very successful collaborations and a kind of apprenticeship while still in school.  These students had a leg up on the rest of us.  Miller published some of the work in Biostatistics Casebook, which I think is another Wiley paperback.

For me it took about fifteen years as an industrial statistician before I got my first consulting job.  I do it now as a side business.  I see it as very tough job to depend on.  No matter how good you are the work is sporadic.  At first people sought me out.  Some because they were my bosses or worked with me at a prior company and others because they saw my book reviews on amazon and now also through my connections at statistics.com.

Many universities now have statistical consulting centers that serve the faculty in all disciplines and nearby industry. Back in the late 1990s UC Irvine formed a consulting center with Bob Newcomb as the head.  He was evry successful at bringing in business to the center that he sometimes was overloaded and referred a few to me.  I got a really nice publication on long term survival of for prostate cancer patients treated with a cryoablation procedure.

Consulting can be rewarding but it is a discipline that needs to be learned.  I think this section was formed to show that consulting is a career option for statisticians and that it is not taught in school although there are ways to do it as I previously mentioned.
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 09:48
From: Rocco Brunelle
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

This is great advice.  I think we should pull these comments together and publish them.

I was fortunate to get a job right out of school with big pharma and work closely with a talented group of statisticians for many years.  The hard part is not the statistics but the science.  I recall spending many hours in physician's offices being lectured about the disease process and also about the chemical structure of the compound.  I personally found this fascinating. I also taught evening stat classes during my first 10 years working as a statistician which I feel helped me hone my statistical consulting skills.

I retired 6 years ago and now have my own statistical consulting firm.  I get clients primarily from "word of mouth" and most of my clients were physicians I had previously worked with. I consult primarily in the clinical trial area and mostly in diabetes research.  (Talk about being narrow!)   I personally could not have been an independent consulting statistician or the only statistician at a company without these years of experience and support.  I'm sure there are some brilliant statistician out there that do not need these years of experience, but most of us need to take the time to develop these skills, just like a good attorney or scientist.

I wish you well in your search and don't forget to also look for a good mentor.

-------------------------------------------
Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
-------------------------------------------

At most smaller companies the role of consulting statistician is only part of a position. When I started my career at a small (R&D dept of < 10 people) company I was: consultant, analyist, programmer, math geek, computer guy, statistician and research scientist. As time wore on and I demonstrated the value a statistician brought to our R&D process, my job evolved and became much more consultant orientated. I had to show the value of a well designed experiment (where I do most consulting) and by association the value of a consulting statistician. Dont focus your job search too narrowly, be prepared to do some "related" work. I found the evolution very rewarding. Its also critical to understand how the process works to be sucessful as a consultant, my years in the trenches make me a much more effective consultant.

-------------------------------------------
Neil Paton, Ph.D.
Statistician
Provimi
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-19-2011 23:01
From: Carlos Alzola
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)


Consulting is a rather large and amorphous field. It is rare for a consulting project to require only statistical consulting (I assume that's the type of consulting you mean). In general there will be other professionals involved (finance, mortgage, telecom, physicians, epidemiologists, economists or health economists, etc. and almost always a database manager and/or programmer). Most smaller consulting companies do not have enough statistical work to have statisticians on staff. Rather, they hire a consultant when they need one. Thus, the consulting companies hiring full-time statisticians (especially at the entry level) are usually bigger and established.

Your best bet for the kind of position you want may be in the social networks (check LinkedIn), but do not reject the larger companies outright. There is a lot to be learned there.

Just my 0.02
-------------------------------------------
Carlos Alzola
Senior Biostatistician
Data Insights Inc.
-------------------------------------------

Thanks so much for all of the great information. In response to a few replies:

I have noticed that many companies are using CROs to do their clincial trials.  I'm wondering if this is the new way of getting experience in the clinical trial area.  This may not sound like a great idea, but it might be a good way to get a few years of experience.  May of the large CRO's are in many of the larger cities in the US and around the world.  Just a thought.

-------------------------------------------
Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 10:07
From: Elliott Mitchell
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Thanks so much for all of the great information. In response to a few replies:

• I should have been a little more specific (or general depending on how you look at it) in my post. I am referring to a position at a consulting firm that would involve me doing analysis; data collection; modeling; programming; and any mathematical/statistical grunt work.  
• I am open to working at a larger firm, and have applied to a few, but most of the positions request or require the candidate to have some internship; part-time; or 6-12 months of experience.  

Considering the application and specialization areas that statisticians are most commonly found, I have not seen one that I would not enjoy thoroughly. I do have a little more enthusiasm about:

• Medical Research (all areas);
• Market Research (especially it if involves choice models);
• Educational Research (I currently teach high school math and statistics); and
• Manufacturing Processes.

I am open to any application area and will let my first industry position determine my area of specialization. 

Keep the comments coming!! They have been great so far!!

-------------------------------------------
Elliott Mitchell
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 08:54
From: Neil Paton
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

At most smaller companies the role of consulting statistician is only part of a position. When I started my career at a small (R&D dept of < 10 people) company I was: consultant, analyist, programmer, math geek, computer guy, statistician and research scientist. As time wore on and I demonstrated the value a statistician brought to our R&D process, my job evolved and became much more consultant orientated. I had to show the value of a well designed experiment (where I do most consulting) and by association the value of a consulting statistician. Dont focus your job search too narrowly, be prepared to do some "related" work. I found the evolution very rewarding. Its also critical to understand how the process works to be sucessful as a consultant, my years in the trenches make me a much more effective consultant.

-------------------------------------------
Neil Paton, Ph.D.
Statistician
Provimi
-------------------------------------------

You might also consider looking for a position at an academic statistical consulting center, where your clients would essentially be university researchers such as faculty, grad students, and research staff (often from many different disciplines). You can see a list of such centers on our website at http://www.cstat.msu.edu/beyond/other_centers_other_univ.aspx

We're not hiring right now, but other centers may be (I haven't looked). My guess is that even though they're part of large organizations (universities), the actual consulting units are fairly small most of the time.

-------------------------------------------
Steven Pierce, Ph.D.
Associate Director
Center for Statistical Training and Consulting
Michigan State University
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 10:07
From: Elliott Mitchell
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Thanks so much for all of the great information. In response to a few replies:

• I should have been a little more specific (or general depending on how you look at it) in my post. I am referring to a position at a consulting firm that would involve me doing analysis; data collection; modeling; programming; and any mathematical/statistical grunt work.  
• I am open to working at a larger firm, and have applied to a few, but most of the positions request or require the candidate to have some internship; part-time; or 6-12 months of experience.  

Considering the application and specialization areas that statisticians are most commonly found, I have not seen one that I would not enjoy thoroughly. I do have a little more enthusiasm about:

• Medical Research (all areas);
• Market Research (especially it if involves choice models);
• Educational Research (I currently teach high school math and statistics); and
• Manufacturing Processes.

I am open to any application area and will let my first industry position determine my area of specialization. 

Keep the comments coming!! They have been great so far!!

-------------------------------------------
Elliott Mitchell
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 08:54
From: Neil Paton
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

At most smaller companies the role of consulting statistician is only part of a position. When I started my career at a small (R&D dept of < 10 people) company I was: consultant, analyist, programmer, math geek, computer guy, statistician and research scientist. As time wore on and I demonstrated the value a statistician brought to our R&D process, my job evolved and became much more consultant orientated. I had to show the value of a well designed experiment (where I do most consulting) and by association the value of a consulting statistician. Dont focus your job search too narrowly, be prepared to do some "related" work. I found the evolution very rewarding. Its also critical to understand how the process works to be sucessful as a consultant, my years in the trenches make me a much more effective consultant.

-------------------------------------------
Neil Paton, Ph.D.
Statistician
Provimi
-------------------------------------------

I can provide some information on educational research positions based on my own experience. I hope it will be helpful.

Educational research is generally done either within a faculty position, in a research and development organization, or as program evaluation in a K-12 or postsecondary setting. After getting my doctorate in educational measurement I got an entry-level, full-time position in the Research and Evaluation department of a K-12 public school district in New Jersey. Most boards of education need people to evaluate government-funded programs for remedial students and will hire employees full- or part-time to do this. My full-time position was advertised but it is possible that some part-time contracts will not be advertised and will be filled by networking. In that case, it could be worthwhile to contact the person in charge of program evaluation at the board and to set up an information interview to ask general questions about the field and possible future opportunities. Often, even if a position is advertised, if they know and like you, you might have a leg up in getting the position.

In my K-12 position we evaluated both government-funded remedial programs and grant-funded special projects. I did everything from site observations and interviews to questionnaire design, data collection, analysis, supervision of research assistants, final reports, and conference presentations. I also did psychometric work on the achievement-testing program.

After a few years I left that position for an evaluation position in the CUNY administration. At the college or university level you may find a position in the central administration or in a college's Office of Institutional Research. In these offices, full-time and part-time employees do a lot of number-crunching on student demographics and achievement and may develop or analyze tests, evaluate special programs or conduct applied instructional research. Public colleges with vocational programs have the most government reporting requirements to comply with. Again, networking can be very useful; even if you don't get a position right away, people will get to know you and that may come in handy when something opens up.

As you may guess from these descriptions, the degree of variety and interest in the projects varies widely depending on the particular institution. You should also be aware that educational evaluation has its share of internal politics, because if you say something negative about a program's effectiveness its funding can be cut, so the evaluator can be a threat. I had to learn a lot about diplomacy and developing trust with the program administrators.

After ten years I left full-time evaluation and now teach in college and work as an evaluation consultant. All of my part-time consulting has been for grants receiving public or private funding, for which data analysis and final reports are required. They were located either at colleges or at a private company that produces and field-tests educational software. I got all of them by word of mouth from the people I came to know through my other research and academic positions. Some grant-funded positions may be advertised, but many are filled by a principal investigator putting together a research team of recommended people. Thus, networking by information interviewing and by meeting people in jobs and at professional conferences is essential. Smaller conferences, i.e. the regional rather than the national organization, are probably more productive, as you meet local people and don't get lost in the crowd.

As a somewhat older professional I haven't used services such as Linked In so cannot comment on how useful they may now be in this field. But I personally believe that technology will never repeal the laws of human nature, and that people always prefer personal contacts when they can get them.

Best of luck in your search.

-------------------------------------------
Annette Gourgey
City Univ of New York
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 10:07
From: Elliott Mitchell
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Thanks so much for all of the great information. In response to a few replies:

• I should have been a little more specific (or general depending on how you look at it) in my post. I am referring to a position at a consulting firm that would involve me doing analysis; data collection; modeling; programming; and any mathematical/statistical grunt work.  
• I am open to working at a larger firm, and have applied to a few, but most of the positions request or require the candidate to have some internship; part-time; or 6-12 months of experience.  

Considering the application and specialization areas that statisticians are most commonly found, I have not seen one that I would not enjoy thoroughly. I do have a little more enthusiasm about:

• Medical Research (all areas);
• Market Research (especially it if involves choice models);
• Educational Research (I currently teach high school math and statistics); and
• Manufacturing Processes.

I am open to any application area and will let my first industry position determine my area of specialization. 

Keep the comments coming!! They have been great so far!!

-------------------------------------------
Elliott Mitchell
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 08:54
From: Neil Paton
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

At most smaller companies the role of consulting statistician is only part of a position. When I started my career at a small (R&D dept of < 10 people) company I was: consultant, analyist, programmer, math geek, computer guy, statistician and research scientist. As time wore on and I demonstrated the value a statistician brought to our R&D process, my job evolved and became much more consultant orientated. I had to show the value of a well designed experiment (where I do most consulting) and by association the value of a consulting statistician. Dont focus your job search too narrowly, be prepared to do some "related" work. I found the evolution very rewarding. Its also critical to understand how the process works to be sucessful as a consultant, my years in the trenches make me a much more effective consultant.

-------------------------------------------
Neil Paton, Ph.D.
Statistician
Provimi
-------------------------------------------

Laliah suggestion a great one.  I work at a medical research center in a hospital system and I consult for many phyisicians, nurses and research fellows.  I have used my sons and bachelor's level student and a volunteer with a masters in biostatistics as apprentices to my internal consulting.  In a way there volunteer work or interships was kind of a pre-entry level consulting apprenticeship.  I would actually hire biostatisticans and SAS programmers to help me out if we had budget for it.

Some one took offense to my earlier comment about Donald Trump.  I think a little exaggeration makes a point and it was not meant to degrade anyone the way this person took it.  But I think a lot of statistics graduates are naive about consulting and think you can just step right in with both feet.  I was just agreeing with the other consultants in this egroup that people have to understand how difficult consulting is and how much you have to learn before you can be successful.  Some lucky people get exposure in college research progams like the one I mentioned at Stanford.  Some can work at a university statistical consulting center or a medical research center where I work.  But I would call these entry level positions apprenticeship rather than consulting positions.  It would be demeaning the the professional statistical consultant to call them otherwise.

The person also said that others were making constructive comments. I guess that implies that mine were not!  Gerry Hahn managed the GE Research Center in New York Until his retirement .  He worked under Jack Welch when when Welch was introducing TQM and the black belt system.  He also is a fine theoretical statistician.  He speaks eloquently about what it takes to be a statistician in industry and the skills one needs to develop that you don't learn in graduate school.  Now that he is retired he is writing some wonderful books helping young graduates learn their way through the great industrial complex as well as the skills needed to beciome a good consultant.  I think with my 32 years of postdoctoral industry experience and about 15 years of part time consulting I know what it is all about and how to start the slow process to develop into a good consultant.  That was all I was trying to convey here.
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 16:44
From: Annette Gourgey
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

I can provide some information on educational research positions based on my own experience. I hope it will be helpful.

Educational research is generally done either within a faculty position, in a research and development organization, or as program evaluation in a K-12 or postsecondary setting. After getting my doctorate in educational measurement I got an entry-level, full-time position in the Research and Evaluation department of a K-12 public school district in New Jersey. Most boards of education need people to evaluate government-funded programs for remedial students and will hire employees full- or part-time to do this. My full-time position was advertised but it is possible that some part-time contracts will not be advertised and will be filled by networking. In that case, it could be worthwhile to contact the person in charge of program evaluation at the board and to set up an information interview to ask general questions about the field and possible future opportunities. Often, even if a position is advertised, if they know and like you, you might have a leg up in getting the position.

In my K-12 position we evaluated both government-funded remedial programs and grant-funded special projects. I did everything from site observations and interviews to questionnaire design, data collection, analysis, supervision of research assistants, final reports, and conference presentations. I also did psychometric work on the achievement-testing program.

After a few years I left that position for an evaluation position in the CUNY administration. At the college or university level you may find a position in the central administration or in a college's Office of Institutional Research. In these offices, full-time and part-time employees do a lot of number-crunching on student demographics and achievement and may develop or analyze tests, evaluate special programs or conduct applied instructional research. Public colleges with vocational programs have the most government reporting requirements to comply with. Again, networking can be very useful; even if you don't get a position right away, people will get to know you and that may come in handy when something opens up.

As you may guess from these descriptions, the degree of variety and interest in the projects varies widely depending on the particular institution. You should also be aware that educational evaluation has its share of internal politics, because if you say something negative about a program's effectiveness its funding can be cut, so the evaluator can be a threat. I had to learn a lot about diplomacy and developing trust with the program administrators.

After ten years I left full-time evaluation and now teach in college and work as an evaluation consultant. All of my part-time consulting has been for grants receiving public or private funding, for which data analysis and final reports are required. They were located either at colleges or at a private company that produces and field-tests educational software. I got all of them by word of mouth from the people I came to know through my other research and academic positions. Some grant-funded positions may be advertised, but many are filled by a principal investigator putting together a research team of recommended people. Thus, networking by information interviewing and by meeting people in jobs and at professional conferences is essential. Smaller conferences, i.e. the regional rather than the national organization, are probably more productive, as you meet local people and don't get lost in the crowd.

As a somewhat older professional I haven't used services such as Linked In so cannot comment on how useful they may now be in this field. But I personally believe that technology will never repeal the laws of human nature, and that people always prefer personal contacts when they can get them.

Best of luck in your search.

-------------------------------------------
Annette Gourgey
City Univ of New York
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 10:07
From: Elliott Mitchell
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Thanks so much for all of the great information. In response to a few replies:

• I should have been a little more specific (or general depending on how you look at it) in my post. I am referring to a position at a consulting firm that would involve me doing analysis; data collection; modeling; programming; and any mathematical/statistical grunt work.  
• I am open to working at a larger firm, and have applied to a few, but most of the positions request or require the candidate to have some internship; part-time; or 6-12 months of experience.  

Considering the application and specialization areas that statisticians are most commonly found, I have not seen one that I would not enjoy thoroughly. I do have a little more enthusiasm about:

• Medical Research (all areas);
• Market Research (especially it if involves choice models);
• Educational Research (I currently teach high school math and statistics); and
• Manufacturing Processes.

I am open to any application area and will let my first industry position determine my area of specialization. 

Keep the comments coming!! They have been great so far!!

-------------------------------------------
Elliott Mitchell
-------------------------------------------

Thanks again to everyone! I have learned more about the consulting field in 24 hours than I could have imagined. This thread will in invaluable in my search. Feel free to keep it coming! 

Elliott someone has been writng to me saying that I offended you with the Donald Trump analogy.  If I did I apologize.  But I think this guy is way off base.  All I was trying to do was make you aware of some of the difficulties and add to your reading materials to get a deeper understanding of what is involved.  I think we have given you many ideas on how to start learning about consulting through you work.  There is no substitute for experience. But I hope you read the wise teachings of Gerry Hahn.  It may help you get to where you want to go on your journey a little faster.
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 20:11
From: Elliott Mitchell
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Thanks again to everyone! I have learned more about the consulting field in 24 hours than I could have imagined. This thread will in invaluable in my search. Feel free to keep it coming! 

-------------------------------------------
Elliott Mitchell
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 18:49
From: Michael Chernick
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)


Laliah suggestion a great one.  I work at a medical research center in a hospital system and I consult for many phyisicians, nurses and research fellows.  I have used my sons and bachelor's level student and a volunteer with a masters in biostatistics as apprentices to my internal consulting.  In a way there volunteer work or interships was kind of a pre-entry level consulting apprenticeship.  I would actually hire biostatisticans and SAS programmers to help me out if we had budget for it.

Some one took offense to my earlier comment about Donald Trump.  I think a little exaggeration makes a point and it was not meant to degrade anyone the way this person took it.  But I think a lot of statistics graduates are naive about consulting and think you can just step right in with both feet.  I was just agreeing with the other consultants in this egroup that people have to understand how difficult consulting is and how much you have to learn before you can be successful.  Some lucky people get exposure in college research progams like the one I mentioned at Stanford.  Some can work at a university statistical consulting center or a medical research center where I work.  But I would call these entry level positions apprenticeship rather than consulting positions.  It would be demeaning the the professional statistical consultant to call them otherwise.

The person also said that others were making constructive comments. I guess that implies that mine were not!  Gerry Hahn managed the GE Research Center in New York Until his retirement .  He worked under Jack Welch when when Welch was introducing TQM and the black belt system.  He also is a fine theoretical statistician.  He speaks eloquently about what it takes to be a statistician in industry and the skills one needs to develop that you don't learn in graduate school.  Now that he is retired he is writing some wonderful books helping young graduates learn their way through the great industrial complex as well as the skills needed to beciome a good consultant.  I think with my 32 years of postdoctoral industry experience and about 15 years of part time consulting I know what it is all about and how to start the slow process to develop into a good consultant.  That was all I was trying to convey here.
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------

Michael, I understood your comment about Donald Trump and thought you made a good point.  I'm a big advocate for havinga good mentor. I think this response to your analogy is the only dark spot to this otherwise very interesting dialog of which you have been a major contributor.

-------------------------------------------
Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 18:49
From: Michael Chernick
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)


Laliah suggestion a great one.  I work at a medical research center in a hospital system and I consult for many phyisicians, nurses and research fellows.  I have used my sons and bachelor's level student and a volunteer with a masters in biostatistics as apprentices to my internal consulting.  In a way there volunteer work or interships was kind of a pre-entry level consulting apprenticeship.  I would actually hire biostatisticans and SAS programmers to help me out if we had budget for it.

Some one took offense to my earlier comment about Donald Trump.  I think a little exaggeration makes a point and it was not meant to degrade anyone the way this person took it.  But I think a lot of statistics graduates are naive about consulting and think you can just step right in with both feet.  I was just agreeing with the other consultants in this egroup that people have to understand how difficult consulting is and how much you have to learn before you can be successful.  Some lucky people get exposure in college research progams like the one I mentioned at Stanford.  Some can work at a university statistical consulting center or a medical research center where I work.  But I would call these entry level positions apprenticeship rather than consulting positions.  It would be demeaning the the professional statistical consultant to call them otherwise.

The person also said that others were making constructive comments. I guess that implies that mine were not!  Gerry Hahn managed the GE Research Center in New York Until his retirement .  He worked under Jack Welch when when Welch was introducing TQM and the black belt system.  He also is a fine theoretical statistician.  He speaks eloquently about what it takes to be a statistician in industry and the skills one needs to develop that you don't learn in graduate school.  Now that he is retired he is writing some wonderful books helping young graduates learn their way through the great industrial complex as well as the skills needed to beciome a good consultant.  I think with my 32 years of postdoctoral industry experience and about 15 years of part time consulting I know what it is all about and how to start the slow process to develop into a good consultant.  That was all I was trying to convey here.
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------

Thank you Rocco for publicly supporting me.  The person who attacked me did so in a private communication and I dealt with him privately also.  I put some more bright light on this Elliot has communicated with me privately as well and is very appreciative of all my suggestions.  I would say that this is a terrific group of consulting statisticians.  So many of you took the time to write out long well thought-out responses to help a young person start out on his career and see if consulting could be a goal to work toward.

I like making analogies to bring home a point.  So I boldly will make one more here.  Elliot is like some of the candidates vying for the Appenticeship on Donald Trump's "reality" show.  He is mature, has a goal and is will to take the right steps to get there.  Donald Trump is an interesting person.  He has a strong ego that rubs people the wrong way at times but there is a lot to learn about the man from what he did in the most recent season.  One of the contestants got caught cheating on the show and he exposed him and immediately fired him.  Yet he has empathy for all the contestants because they all had their careers shortcircuited by the economic recession.  He even felt that the exposure of the cheater might have taught the guy a lesson and he gave him a second chance by bringing him back to help out in the final task.

Another important point that is also a good lesson for prospective consultants was made in the same season.
One man and one woman made it to the final stage.  I think the man's name was Clint.  On the very first show he was the only man there without the common sesne to wear a tie.  Trump pointed that one.  Clint said that this was just the way he was accustomed to dress.  But he said he would do whatever it takes toget this apprenticeship and if Donald wanted him to wear a tie he would wear a tie.  From then on Clint followed a strategy of doing everything that he could to impress Trump and kissing up was part of his atrategy.

On the other hand the woman was a very attractive and crafty young attorney who was softspoken but wise beyond her years. She used her charm and sex appeal in subtle and sometimes not too subtle ways.  In the boardroom she was calm and thoughtful.  She was not using the typical cut throat approach but she did do all the right things at the right time and presented the image of a businesswoman much like Trump's own daughter Ivanka.

Clint would sell himself bragging about his accomplishments and determination and was able to move along. When an expert wa asked to evaluate Clint and Stephen in the end he recommended Stphen because Stephen conveyed the right business image to be a part of the Trump empire while Clint did not. But Clint had done a better job on the tasks.

On the final task Clint selected the more difficult task because he wanted to impress Trump that he will work the hardest.  He also wa focussed on Liza Minnelli and getting her to look great to impress the guests at the dinner.  But he missed a detail and had her name spelled incorrectly on all the materials and had to hustle to try to fix it.  

The female contestant had to organize the golf tournament and was stuck with a contestant on her team that had little common sense and experience in business.  To please Trump she offered him his choice of a golfing partner and he chose the contestant on her team who was the an experienced golfer, the same contestant that the apprentice candidate had the run ins with.  So it back fired leaving her with one less person to help out during the tournament.  She made another seemingly fatal mistake when she made Trump's  team a threesome while everyone else had the advantage of four or five in there group which apparently gave the larger groups a competitive advantage.  But she didn't give up even though she found this out from a complaining call from Donald Trump after the play had started.  Somehow she got another golfer to rush to the course and join the Trump team for the final 9 holes.

Clint in the meantime used Stephen's skills at catering to make the dinner as perfect as possible and he did a good job as MC of the show except that his down home southern image came blasting through with all the "you alls".

In the board room Clint was asked about the excessive 'you alls"  and he said that it wasn't put on.  That was his natural way of talking and he couldn't help it.  When asked the final question about why Donald should pich them to be the new apprentice, Clint went back to his resume and how he was Valedictorian of his high school class and repeated all the things he had said before about setermination and willingness to do anything Trump wanted him to do.  The young attorney showed her class and guile.  Throughout the show she had worked her way through never pushing herself or bragging.  She clinched the appenticeship with her answer.  She said she was valedictorian of her high school class.  But she wanted to be the apprentice not just to learn from Donald but also to learn from Don Jr and Ivanka and work the them to lead the next generation of the Trump empire.  My wife thought Clint would win.  But he didn't.

The lesson here that applies anywhere in the business world including consulting is (1) appearances really do matter (some times it is as important as perfomance), (2) thinking outside the box with a thoughtful answer will impress prospective employers as well as clients and (3) kissing up to the boss and working extra hard doesn't always pay off.

I think these three lessons are points I want to bring to Elliot and anyone else who aspires for a career in business.  I hope you were all able to read through this long story, see the analogy and recognize the important life lesson.  Reality TV is TV more than it is reality.  But in this case I think it shows the true character of Trump and what it takes to get ahead in this world.

 
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-21-2011 06:46
From: Rocco Brunelle
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Michael, I understood your comment about Donald Trump and thought you made a good point.  I'm a big advocate for havinga good mentor. I think this response to your analogy is the only dark spot to this otherwise very interesting dialog of which you have been a major contributor.

-------------------------------------------
Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
-------------------------------------------

I usually don't read long messages but I enjoyed yours.  I think you are right.  My career in big pharma was not stellar but it never stalled.  I just concentrated on doing good work and not on the appearances.  I probably should have spent more time on the appearances but it's not me.  But in the end I was happy with my career and my position. 

-------------------------------------------
Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-21-2011 08:05
From: Michael Chernick
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)


Thank you Rocco for publicly supporting me.  The person who attacked me did so in a private communication and I dealt with him privately also.  I put some more bright light on this Elliot has communicated with me privately as well and is very appreciative of all my suggestions.  I would say that this is a terrific group of consulting statisticians.  So many of you took the time to write out long well thought-out responses to help a young person start out on his career and see if consulting could be a goal to work toward.

I like making analogies to bring home a point.  So I boldly will make one more here.  Elliot is like some of the candidates vying for the Appenticeship on Donald Trump's "reality" show.  He is mature, has a goal and is will to take the right steps to get there.  Donald Trump is an interesting person.  He has a strong ego that rubs people the wrong way at times but there is a lot to learn about the man from what he did in the most recent season.  One of the contestants got caught cheating on the show and he exposed him and immediately fired him.  Yet he has empathy for all the contestants because they all had their careers shortcircuited by the economic recession.  He even felt that the exposure of the cheater might have taught the guy a lesson and he gave him a second chance by bringing him back to help out in the final task.

Another important point that is also a good lesson for prospective consultants was made in the same season.
One man and one woman made it to the final stage.  I think the man's name was Clint.  On the very first show he was the only man there without the common sesne to wear a tie.  Trump pointed that one.  Clint said that this was just the way he was accustomed to dress.  But he said he would do whatever it takes toget this apprenticeship and if Donald wanted him to wear a tie he would wear a tie.  From then on Clint followed a strategy of doing everything that he could to impress Trump and kissing up was part of his atrategy.

On the other hand the woman was a very attractive and crafty young attorney who was softspoken but wise beyond her years. She used her charm and sex appeal in subtle and sometimes not too subtle ways.  In the boardroom she was calm and thoughtful.  She was not using the typical cut throat approach but she did do all the right things at the right time and presented the image of a businesswoman much like Trump's own daughter Ivanka.

Clint would sell himself bragging about his accomplishments and determination and was able to move along. When an expert wa asked to evaluate Clint and Stephen in the end he recommended Stphen because Stephen conveyed the right business image to be a part of the Trump empire while Clint did not. But Clint had done a better job on the tasks.

On the final task Clint selected the more difficult task because he wanted to impress Trump that he will work the hardest.  He also wa focussed on Liza Minnelli and getting her to look great to impress the guests at the dinner.  But he missed a detail and had her name spelled incorrectly on all the materials and had to hustle to try to fix it.  

The female contestant had to organize the golf tournament and was stuck with a contestant on her team that had little common sense and experience in business.  To please Trump she offered him his choice of a golfing partner and he chose the contestant on her team who was the an experienced golfer, the same contestant that the apprentice candidate had the run ins with.  So it back fired leaving her with one less person to help out during the tournament.  She made another seemingly fatal mistake when she made Trump's  team a threesome while everyone else had the advantage of four or five in there group which apparently gave the larger groups a competitive advantage.  But she didn't give up even though she found this out from a complaining call from Donald Trump after the play had started.  Somehow she got another golfer to rush to the course and join the Trump team for the final 9 holes.

Clint in the meantime used Stephen's skills at catering to make the dinner as perfect as possible and he did a good job as MC of the show except that his down home southern image came blasting through with all the "you alls".

In the board room Clint was asked about the excessive 'you alls"  and he said that it wasn't put on.  That was his natural way of talking and he couldn't help it.  When asked the final question about why Donald should pich them to be the new apprentice, Clint went back to his resume and how he was Valedictorian of his high school class and repeated all the things he had said before about setermination and willingness to do anything Trump wanted him to do.  The young attorney showed her class and guile.  Throughout the show she had worked her way through never pushing herself or bragging.  She clinched the appenticeship with her answer.  She said she was valedictorian of her high school class.  But she wanted to be the apprentice not just to learn from Donald but also to learn from Don Jr and Ivanka and work the them to lead the next generation of the Trump empire.  My wife thought Clint would win.  But he didn't.

The lesson here that applies anywhere in the business world including consulting is (1) appearances really do matter (some times it is as important as perfomance), (2) thinking outside the box with a thoughtful answer will impress prospective employers as well as clients and (3) kissing up to the boss and working extra hard doesn't always pay off.

I think these three lessons are points I want to bring to Elliot and anyone else who aspires for a career in business.  I hope you were all able to read through this long story, see the analogy and recognize the important life lesson.  Reality TV is TV more than it is reality.  But in this case I think it shows the true character of Trump and what it takes to get ahead in this world.

 
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------

What a great thread!  I am not a stats student, but rather I am seeking a PhD in Consulting Psychology.  I joined ASA because I really enjoy the statistics portion of my degree and work as a stats TA and tutor.  What my university has done to provide students mentorship and 'entry level' consulting work, is develop its own student run consulting firm on campus.  The firm is a non-profit organization that works mostly with other non-profits who can not afford to pay 'real' consultants.  Although most of our work has been in non-statistical arenas (e.g. management coaching, strategic planning, etc.), we have won a few contracts for program evaluation (pretty basic stuff).  The firm is overseen by a professor with 30+ years of consulting experience and we bring in specialists when appropriate.  Like a lot of others have mentioned, doing the actual consulting work is only a small piece of being successful in the consulting industry.  Managing the firm for the past two years, I have had to learn more about accounting, marketing, project management, customer relations, etc. than my course work would ever teach me.  It has really been an amazing experience and I have incredible mentors.  Having said all this, I will still likely work internally as an HR specialist once I finish my degree, before eventually switching over to consulting.  Best of luck!  Feel free to email me with any questions or check out our firm at http://www.organizationalconsultingcenter.com/
-------------------------------------------
Alex Howland
Consulting Psychology Ph.D. Student
Alliant International University, San Diego
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-21-2011 08:49
From: Rocco Brunelle
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

I usually don't read long messages but I enjoyed yours.  I think you are right.  My career in big pharma was not stellar but it never stalled.  I just concentrated on doing good work and not on the appearances.  I probably should have spent more time on the appearances but it's not me.  But in the end I was happy with my career and my position. 

-------------------------------------------
Rocco Brunelle
Senior Statistician
Bowsher Brunelle Smith LLC
-------------------------------------------

Alex:  Thanks for the compliments and for reminding us that what we say about the statisticians role in consulting or industry in terms of dealing with his client or boss alpplies equally well in other disciplines.
-------------------------------------------
Michael Chernick
Director of Biostatistical Services
Lankenau Institute for Medical Research
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-21-2011 12:34
From: Alex Howland
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

What a great thread!  I am not a stats student, but rather I am seeking a PhD in Consulting Psychology.  I joined ASA because I really enjoy the statistics portion of my degree and work as a stats TA and tutor.  What my university has done to provide students mentorship and 'entry level' consulting work, is develop its own student run consulting firm on campus.  The firm is a non-profit organization that works mostly with other non-profits who can not afford to pay 'real' consultants.  Although most of our work has been in non-statistical arenas (e.g. management coaching, strategic planning, etc.), we have won a few contracts for program evaluation (pretty basic stuff).  The firm is overseen by a professor with 30+ years of consulting experience and we bring in specialists when appropriate.  Like a lot of others have mentioned, doing the actual consulting work is only a small piece of being successful in the consulting industry.  Managing the firm for the past two years, I have had to learn more about accounting, marketing, project management, customer relations, etc. than my course work would ever teach me.  It has really been an amazing experience and I have incredible mentors.  Having said all this, I will still likely work internally as an HR specialist once I finish my degree, before eventually switching over to consulting.  Best of luck!  Feel free to email me with any questions or check out our firm at http://www.organizationalconsultingcenter.com/
-------------------------------------------
Alex Howland
Consulting Psychology Ph.D. Student
Alliant International University, San Diego
-------------------------------------------

Depending on your interest in consultees, you may want to check research hospitals and clinics. We have a team of about 15 statisticians in our division of biostatistics here in Detroit and we quite often hire green. When we post positions we usually go through alumni groups and then to the University of Florida's stat job board. So connect with your graduate program to see if they have job mailing lists for alumni and perhaps check other large universities to see if they have job posting pages. Finally, it's my impression that biostat and applied stat programs have a capstone requirement for the MS (or MPH) degree. Perhaps you didn't do an intership but you should make sure to highlight your experience from a capstone course.
-------------------------------------------
Laila Poisson
Biostatistician
Henry Ford Health System
-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Raymond Hoffmann
Professor
Associate Director of Quantitatie Health Sciences
Medical College of Wisconsin
-------------------------------------------
You may have sent your credentials already, I haven't had time
to follow the whole stream.  I would be glad to give you a quick
and honest evaluation of them. And whether you have any glaring weaknesses
and what your strengths are.  If someone else has offered just ignore this!

My sense is that, for example, master's level applied statisticians or biostatisticians
are in great demand - even with the current economy.  (at least that is what we are
finding).  The advice that has been given here to start with an academic center is very good,
the demand for statistical advice always outstrips the supply.

Ray






Original Message:
Sent: 01-20-2011 15:50
From: Laila Poisson
Subject: Entry Level Consulting Positions (where are they?)

Depending on your interest in consultees, you may want to check research hospitals and clinics. We have a team of about 15 statisticians in our division of biostatistics here in Detroit and we quite often hire green. When we post positions we usually go through alumni groups and then to the University of Florida's stat job board. So connect with your graduate program to see if they have job mailing lists for alumni and perhaps check other large universities to see if they have job posting pages. Finally, it's my impression that biostat and applied stat programs have a capstone requirement for the MS (or MPH) degree. Perhaps you didn't do an intership but you should make sure to highlight your experience from a capstone course.
-------------------------------------------
Laila Poisson
Biostatistician
Henry Ford Health System
-------------------------------------------