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ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

  • 1.  ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-20-2013 12:55
    This message has been cross posted to the following eGroups: Statistical Consulting Section and Young Professionals Group .
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    Hello:

    I would like to know if any ASA members have managed to derive value from this accreditation. The requirements are quite rigorous. It is impossible to satisfy them without having an advanced degree and a few successful years of working as a statistician after graduation. He who is able to get certified simply doesn't need it - because his resume is already great and a formal stamp of approval will add very little to it. If you have a different opinion, please share.

    Regards,
    Nik


  • 2.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-21-2013 21:13

    Hi Nik,

    Thank you for your question on accreditation.  Although other statistical societies in the world (UK, Australia, and Canada) have been doing it for quite some time, it's a relatively new program for ASA so I think others on this list will likely have the same question.  When I was first approached to be on the Accreditation Implementation Committee, I wasn't sure accreditation was the right thing for ASA to do.  There were a few things that changed my mind, but probably the biggest item is the fact that accreditation benefits the entire profession of statistics, regardless of whether or not a professional statistician chooses to be accredited.  It defines to the world that there is a profession called Statistics, there is a body of knowledge known as Statistics, and there are certain expectations for professional Statisticians. 

    Personally, it does provide benefit.  When working with non-statisticians, they ask me what it means to be an accredited statistician.  (I have the PSTAT logo on my business card.)  I let them know it is a peer reviewed, portfolio-based process that one might choose to do because it shows that you have been "recognized by your peers as combining education, experience, competence, and commitment to ethics at a level that marks you as a statistical professional."  For me, it is a credential that helps build confidence with customers who are not already familiar with my work.

    Financially, if you attend JSM short courses or the CSP, the benefits for PSTAT members pay for the cost of being accredited.  The list of benefits can be found on the ASA accreditation page http://www.amstat.org/accreditation/benefits.cfm.

    I was happy to read in your email that you think the requirements are rigorous.  That was the intention when the process was put together.  ASA doesn't want everyone to be able to become a professionally accredited statistician - only those who are qualified.  It needs to mean something to be accredited or there is no point in having the credential.  I went through the application process, and I don't think it is unreasonable.  It does require some effort.  However, if you have a current CV/resume (I didn't at the time I applied.) and recent work product, the rest of the process is pretty straightforward.  The current PSTAT credential does require an advanced degree in statistics (or a related field with some exceptions) and 5 years of experience as an applied statistician.

    There is an informational session and a panel discussion at JSM on ASA Accreditation.  Di Michelson sent them in an earlier post.  It will be great if people attend!

    Teri Utlaut, Ph.D., PStat®

    Accreditation Committee Chair









  • 3.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-22-2013 08:01
    Hi Nik,

    To my knowledge most professions have some sort of certification to acknowledge those that have both experience and knowledge.  For example, professional speakers have a certification, professional coaches, accountants, etc.  All require both knowledge and experience and some even require exams.  Ethics is also a common component. Certification helps to distinguish those who are truly committed to and have invested time and energy into the profession versus those that have taken some courses, done a few things, but have not had sufficient depth of experience or education to be considered "professional".

    Hope that helps.

    -------------------------------------------
    Colleen Mangeot
    Biostatistician
    Cincinnati Children's Hospital
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  • 4.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-22-2013 16:04

    Thank you all for replying.
    A typical certification (e.g. SAS Base Programmer) does not require one to have lots of practical experience. Therefore, such certifications are only useful for finding out what entry-level professionals take things more seriously than others. As soon as a person accumulates a portfolio (e.g., a number of completed SAS projects), the certificate or the absence thereof becomes irrelevant.

    APS is different in the sense that it does require a portfolio based on a few years of practical experience. Therefore, it's not clear why one should bother with APS if he/she has a portfolio that can be used to impress the clients directly.

    Nik




  • 5.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-22-2013 16:17

    Nik,

    I know of an employer where people with over three years of SAS programming experience (a substantial portfolio including experience with Advanced SAS Certification topics) were still asked by their managers to get Base SAS Certification.  Clearly, the managers saw value in certification, regardless of the portfolio. 

    I'm not sure your assumption that a substantial portfolio negates the value of certification applies in all circumstances.


    -------------------------------------------
    Colleen Mangeot
    Biostatistician
    Cincinnati Children's Hospital
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  • 6.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-22-2013 16:49
    When considering whether I would get accreditation I have weighed the cost and benefit.  Quite honestly, as someone with a some years of experience and references from previous work, I'm not sure if the marginal benefit of the accreditation is worth my time in completing all the paperwork and my money in fees.  The main issue for me is that a potential client or employer would have to care about whether I had this accreditation.  None to date have.  An advanced statistics degree plus experience has been sufficient as Nik suggests.  I suppose this could be a matter of time if accreditation catches on, but at this point it doesn't seem particularly valuable for me. 


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    Nathan Menton
    Associate Statistician
    United Nations
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  • 7.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-23-2013 10:13
    I also weighed the cost and benefits of getting accredited, and decided to go for accreditation.  Do I really need it with a PhD in Biostatistics and many years as an academic statistician and independent consultant?  While it's nice to have it listed on my CV and I hope it will generate more consulting gigs, it was another past experience that led me to getting accredited.  I have reviewed legal cases where "statisticians" have made statements that students in my intro stat class for non-majors would have flagged as problematic.  My hope in getting accredited is to push these people out of the industry, since they clearly do not have any expertise in statistics.  If law firms and companies learn about the PStat accreditation, they can make more informed choices about hiring only those who really have the skills to call them such.  The small cost of accreditation is worthwhile to improve the image and reputation of our profession.

    There is also now a community of accredited statisticians who have formed an online network (there is a LinkedIn group for PStats).  For example, I found a few speakers for our local statistics career night through that list.


    Michael




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    Michael Posner
    Villanova University
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  • 8.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-23-2013 11:31

    Hello Michael:

    Could you let me have a direct link to that LinkedIn group.

    Thanks,
    Nik






  • 9.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-26-2013 08:35
    The group is called "Accredited Professional Statisticians (PStat)".  Once I confirm your name is on the accredited list, I'll accept your request to join.

    Michael


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    Michael Posner
    Villanova University
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  • 10.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-26-2013 08:53
    Sooo...those who have an interest in obtaining the PSA, or want to "hang out" with those that already have it to "see" first-hand its value / what use is made of it...are not welcome?  I would think that Group would be the *best* place to learn and reach an informed decision.

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    Wayne Fischer
    Statistician
    University of Texas Medical Branch
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  • 11.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-29-2013 23:17
    Wayne,

    If you are interested in learning or chatting more about accreditation, there are a number of venues that I recommend.  First, there are PStat informational meetings at JSM and the Conference on Statistical Practice.  At JSM this year (search the online program under the accreditation committee), you'll see two events - an informational meeting at 12:30pm on Tuesday, Aug 6 and a topic contributed panel at 2pm on the same day.  Second, there is information online at http://www.amstat.org/accreditation (including a list of AmStat News articles on accreditation at http://www.amstat.org/accreditation/AmstatNewsArticles.cfm).  Third, you are free to contact any of the accredited statisticians (the list is at http://www.amstat.org/accreditation/memberlist.cfm).  If you would like, I am happy to share a question on the PStat LinkedIn Group and send you the responses.  If there is sufficient interest in creating an open LinkedIn group to discuss considering accreditation, that's an option.  Lastly, Ron Wasserstein and the Accreditation Committee have offered to answer any questions that folks have about accreditation.  While they might not be the right audience for questions about how accreditation has impacted folks, they are definitely the right resource to discuss anything about the process of getting accredited.




    Michael



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    Michael Posner
    Villanova University
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  • 12.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-30-2013 09:05
    Michael, thanks for your reply.  My thoughts:

    (1)  In today's world of the Internet and "instant" communications, incurring the expense and loss of time attending a conference to interact and learn about a specific issue from relatively few people is difficult to justify.
    (2)  The online information (which I already read) is a good starting point, but such "static" information is but barely a beginning for those who want to learn attitudes and experiences of those accredited as they evolve over time.
    (3)  The list of those accredited does not include their contact information - other than their Websites, and not many will spend the time to try to contact them one at a time that way (and try to start and carry out an exchange), or try to find their email addresses there.
    (4)  You playing the middle-man would be inefficient and cumbersome - but thanks for the offer.   :-)  
    (5)  Why start yet another LinkedIn Group [I belong to too many already  :-) ] when the existing PStat Group could meet the need?

    No, I think the optimal approach *is* a forum such as a LinkedIn Group (for the reasons above, plus the "many-to-many" form of communication that leverages and shares the conversation among many simultaneously).  I guess I just don't understand the need to segregate those accredited and those not...even if those not accredited just lurked on the PStat forum it could be very beneficial in deciding to become a PStat-er, to see what the content is.

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    Wayne Fischer
    Statistician
    University of Texas Medical Branch
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  • 13.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-30-2013 12:07
    Two points.
    1) To echo Mark Martin, Richard Erickson, and Janet McDougall, the Royal Statistical Society also has two levels--and I suspect was the first to do so. It is sort of like the Journeyman and Apprentice of two or three centuries ago. That is something the ASA should consider.
    2) As I see it, and the reason I became a PStat, is a very long term effort to "professionalize" statistics in the image of non-statisticians. So often statistical analysis is done by people trained in other technical fields. Sometimes it is well done, sometimes not, as is medical care by a non-licenced practitioner. A medical license does not guarantee you'll get good medical care, but it certainly increases the probability. To protect the public from analysis by less-than-professional statistics users, we need a licensing and PStat is a big start in that direction. The point is: look forward 20 years or so and see a requirement for PStat in scientific analysis, legal analysis, statistician hiring ads, etc. That will go far to protect the public from bumblers and charlatans and to protect statistics as a profession from an image of misleading conclusions.
    --Bob

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    Robert Riffenburgh
    Naval Medical Center
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  • 14.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-30-2013 12:50
    Bob, et al. --

    I've been lurking throughout this conversation. Fascinating diversity of opinion on the subject of the PStat.

    Speaking as one of those rogue, unlicensed providers out there -- my academic background is in moral philosophy, not mathematics -- I'm nevertheless called upon in my current profession to provide statistics-informed recommendations about my health plan's quality-improvement programs. We don't do doctoral-level, theoretical statistics filled with more Greek letters than a fraternity party; we make do with techniques like multivariate linear regressions and old-fashioned clinical judgment. Judging by some of the comments I've seen, I think I should start wearing a bib when I fire up SAS or R so that I don't drool on my tie while I'm randomly clicking buttons hoping that "statistics" will result. :)

    Whether degreed statisticians like it or not, the line between "stats" and "analysis" is blurry in the business world. If you're a hiring manager, would you rather have to hire two expensive FTEs -- one Ph.D statistician, one data technician -- or one slightly less expensive FTE who will provide a soup-to-nuts solution? (Same holds for solo consultants.) We do have a handful of Ph.D statisticians in my office, but the doctoral credentials were icing on the "jack of all trades" cake. I can provide my own data pulls, scrub my own data, develop content expertise, and apply statistical techniques to arrive at a hopefully sophisticated end product. Professional statisticians rarely, in our experience, have the background in data extraction or the subject-matter expertise to assess the quality of a data set. They just take the numbers and perform their wizardry. Obviously, I'm painting with a broad brush, but I think the larger point holds: What you gain from having a practitioner at the PStat level is offset in part by skills and experience that the practitioner is less likely to have. The degree to which the "in part" matters ... well, there's the real question the industry will have to grapple with in the coming years.

    I'm reminded of my past life as a journalist. Lots of people who advanced to mid- and large-market print publications resisted the ascent of bloggers and the spread of social media. They believed that journalism was a capital-P profession that required strict educational or experiential credentials before you'd be welcomed into the club. The rest of the world said that journalism isn't a profession but rather a practice: Anyone who performs the role of a journalist is a journalist. And although there's not any licensing for journalism in the U.S., the "credential" for a "serious" journalist is probably membership in the Society of Professional Journalists or similar group. I hope statisticians can square the circle on this one and protect sound practice while retaining sufficient humility to recognize that there are many working statisticians out there who are plenty smart and need support even if they don't have a stats degree.

    I have no beef with PStat. I just wish that non-degreed statisticians -- those of us who do the work, even if we don't have the sheepskin -- had some mechanism for demonstrating that we're not merely the red-headed stepchildren of the industry.

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    Jason E. Gillikin, CPHQ
    Medical Informatics Consultant
    Priority Health
    ASA Q&P Webmaster
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  • 15.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-30-2013 13:24
    Bob, and all.

    Nicely stated. Another lurker, and I agree in total with your comments. I am a PhD statistician, and am ever cognizant and appreciative of those I work with who can pull the data, clean, etc. and who also have a good understanding of the statistical techniques being applied to that data. I interpret the "PhD statistician" component of my job as overviewing when asked, complementing, occasionally fine tuning when needed, and in general, consulting with my well qualified colleagues.

    I think the trick that needs to be mastered in the implementation and growth of the PStat is that we not build an unnecessary hurdle for "non-professional" statisticians who are nevertheless extremely well qualified to provide statistical analysis and judgements.

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    Marc Loizeaux
    BlueCross BlueShield of Tennessee
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  • 16.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-30-2013 13:46
    Quite right, Marc - your last paragraph states my concern.  After reading the requirements, I'm wondering how far I'd get in the review process with my PhD in Chemical Engineering - with no "concentration" in statistics, applied or otherwise.  As an undergraduate Chem E I had three courses: Intro to Prob and Stats + Decision Theory + Design of Experiments [all good stuff  :-) ].  As a graduate student I had an excellent Design of Experiments & Regression Analysis course...from a Chem E prof!  OTOH, almost all my graduate courses were highly mathematical / quantitative in the areas of systems analysis, modeling, optimization and control.

    Those few statistics courses convinced me to learn as much as I could about applied statistics, which I've been able to do throughout my careers (industry R&D and manufacturing, and now healthcare) by participating in numerous short courses, conferences, reading books and papers, and doing / teaching / consulting.  So I feel I easily have the requisite knowledge of an MS in Applied Statistics, plus a wealth of experience...but how might that appear in the eyes of the ASA Accrediting Committee...?    :-)



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    Wayne Fischer
    Statistician
    University of Texas Medical Branch
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  • 17.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-30-2013 14:07
    Wayne and colleagues, If you would like to work through how you might present your credentials to the Accreditation Committee, then let's talk. My email is ron@amstat.org, and I would be glad to connect with you and set up a phone call. One favor, please: can we wait until after JSM? :-) Ron ------------------------------------------- Ron Wasserstein Executive Director The American Statistical Association Promoting the Practice and Profession of Statistics 732 N. Washington St. Alexandria, VA 22314 703-684-1221 x1860 -------------------------------------------


  • 18.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-30-2013 18:27
    Hi Wayne et al.

    The PStat was created for applied statisticians - who have the experience demonstrated competence and education to be recognized by their peers as a professional statistician.  This recognizes that statistical science is a young field where there are many excellent statisticians who do not have a PhD in stats - because until maybe 20 years ago you only got such a degree if you wanted to be an academic.  The review is portfolio based - and as a consultant in pharma this was not easy to put together, but through redaction and permission from clients I could demonstrate competence in the field.

    In the future, because statistical education is becoming more common, more weight will be placed on having better theoretical grounding as you enter the field - and we would all expect that.  Now accreditation can help define the good, the bad and the ugly statistical practitioners out there, because bad stats makes for bad decisions (or maybe even ugly ones).  It also is the first step in becoming recognized as a profession.

    So Bob and Jason please apply.  We need the credible people as PStats for accreditation to be credible - and from your brief comments you are competent practitioners. 

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    Janet McDougall
    President
    McDougall Scientific Ltd
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  • 19.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-31-2013 09:52
    Huh.  I just realized that, although ASA's forum system automatically grabs your job title and place of employment and uses them with your name as your posting sign-off, it doesn't attach the PStat designation for those who are certified (endorsed?).

    Seems an opportunity for recognition and promotion is being missed?

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    Wayne Fischer
    Statistician
    University of Texas Medical Branch
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  • 20.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-22-2013 16:44
    Hi Nik,

    It is my experience that someone who knows little about a subject can be misled by someone who knows only a little more about the subject.  Show me a portfolio in art history and I will be impressed, even if everything you show me came out of the only book you've read.  Show me a list of jobs you've done and reports that you've written on art history and on authenticating art, and how am I to know whether you're going about it right, or whether you've simply pulled the same wool over several clients' eyes, deliberately or through naive incompetence?  

    If I am looking for a true art historian to judge the authenticity of a prospective purchase, it would be useful to me to have a process whereby all of these portfolios can be reviewed by other art 
    historians to tell me which ones are legit.  Accreditation does that for me, so that I don't accidentally hire someone who tells me that this 1847 work is an original by John Tukey.

    While accreditation isn't proof of competence, it is evidence that the holder possesses all the tools needed for competence, and that's a pretty good start.  Once potential clients become aware that there is such a thing as a P.Stat, the savvy ones may use it as a filter on potential consultants.   

    -Tom.

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    Thomas Loughin
    Simon Fraser University
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  • 21.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 07-22-2013 16:52
    All -

    Jeri Mulrow lead an ASA In-Reach committee to put together a set of slides on various ASA initiatives, including Accreditation.  You can view the slides by following these steps:

    Login to the ASA website.  Once on the Members Only page,  click on My Volunteer Activities tab, go to the bottom link "Informational Slides from ASA".  Then click on Accreditation to download the slides to your PC.

    If you view the slides in slide format (as opposed to slide show format) you can read the informative notes on each slide.



    -------------------------------------------
    [Daniel] [Jeske]
    [Professor and Chair]
    [Department of Statistics]
    [University of California - Riverside]
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  • 22.  RE:ASA, Accredited Professional Statistician - what's the point?

    Posted 08-01-2013 17:26
    I think it's relevant to this discussion to note that ASA isn't the only organization certifying in this space.  INFORMS (Operation Research and Management Sciences) started a certification program in analytics at pretty much the same time that ASA started their accreditation program. I'm enclosing an email from INFORMS below.

    Because I don't think I'm personally interested in certification I have not done a "compare and contrast" between these two programs, although would assume both ASA and INFORMS have done so

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Kruger
    Information Resources Inc
    -------------------------------------------

    Dear Michael, 

    Join the ranks of dedicated analytics professionals who have distinguished themselves with INFORMS CAP® certification. See what they have to say

     

    INFORMS offers the industry's only exam-based certification designed to recognize analytics professionals who want to demonstrate a deep commitment to excellence and continued professional development. Won't you join us?

     

    The exam is based on a rigorous job task analysis and is not specific to any type of vendor, industry, application, or software. Successful candidates will add CAP® after their names. 

     

    Two new exam sites have just been announced for 2013:

    • November 6 in San Francisco (co-located with IBM SPSS Data Mining Workshop
    • November 12 in New York City (co-located with SAS Data Mining Workshop and Survival Data Mining course.)

     

    Also, choose from exam options in October. See the 2013 CAP® Exam Schedule to the right.  

    You may apply now or click here for more information.

    Scan the Candidate Handbook to see if analytics certification is right for you. Try answering the 24 sample questions. (You don't have to get them all right to pass the exam.) 

    INFORMS is the largest professional society in the world for analytics professionals and is dedicated to advancing the profession and setting consensus standards for good analytics practice. Consider joining INFORMS.

    Contact INFORMS for more details.