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COPSS Fisher Award

  • 1.  COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-15-2020 08:03

    Dear Colleagues,
    The leadership of the ASA has recommended to the awarding organization – COPSS – that the R.A. Fisher Award and Lectureship be retired and that this year’s award be retitled. There is no principle of greater value than the principle of strengthening the statistical community by moving forward to form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society. We are committed to future diversity and inclusion across the generations in the statistics profession.

    We celebrate and commend the outstanding accomplishments of past award recipients and especially this year’s recipient, Kathryn Roeder. She richly deserves to be and will be appropriately honored at JSM, and we look forward to her lecture.

    Ron



    ------------------------------
    Ron Wasserstein
    Executive Director
    The American Statistical Association
    Promoting the Practice and Profession of Statistics
    732 N. Washington St.
    Alexandria, VA 22314
    703-684-1221 x1860
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-15-2020 09:39
    I support this action by the ASA leadership.  After reading the discussion on various threads about renaming the Fisher lecture, I now see that retaining the name is a signal to our current/prospective members from communities of color that ASA is not welcoming to them.  There are other ways that we can use these lectures to honor and recognize the accomplishments of our current members.

    ------------------------------
    Fred Hulting
    Director, Global Knowledge Services
    General Mills, Inc.
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-17-2020 08:57
    History is being made when that proposed is implemented. In my opinion the rationale for making such history must be accompanied by a detailed and explicit rationale for doing so, including supporting data, analytic methods, and historical context. (Data and analysis methods are particularly important since that is what the ASA is about.) I suggest creating such a detailed rationale that at a minimum includes the following: history of eugenics with emphasis on the data used to establish this belief system, participation by our statistical fathers, summary of the methodological contributions by these statistical founders, contemporary data that counters the basis of the eugenics belief system, data on continued existence of this belief system, evidence of flawed analytic methods to justify eugenics, ... 

    I would like to see a link to this rationale explicitly featured and celebrated on the ASA web page. Furthermore, this rationale should be there regardless of whether the proposed changes are made. Data rules!

    ------------------------------
    Brent Blumenstein
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-17-2020 09:52
    Edited by Laura Kapitula 06-18-2020 13:47

    Thank you ASA for this decision.  

    I disagree that data rules.  Data is just data until we turn it into information and we need strong ethics and values as statisticians who use data to get information and make decisions using data. 

    We do not need data to invalidate eugenics because eugenics is a morally flawed position.  It is not based on data but based on racism and classism, and the incorrect belief that some people are worth more than others because they are wealthier or more successful.  I think as statisticians we need to embrace the need for strong ethics and that ethics need to be our guiding principals. Data can be useful when turned into information by skilled, humble and ethical statisticians, but the data itself is ignorant.    I think it is important to state that Fisher was not a eugenicist because of information in data, he used data to carry out his values, and his values are what are ethically fundamentally flawed.   We need to be ethical and have principals independent of the data.

    ------------------------------
    Laura Kapitula
    Associate Professor
    Grand Valley State University
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-17-2020 13:10
    Perhaps I should have been more explicit: The connection between taking an ethical position is often (always?) based on interpretation of data. Sometimes the interpretation is flawed. A eugenics example of a flawed ethical position: A homogeneous group is labeled as "inferior" on some characteristic without taking into account that the characteristic may be consequential to something else, such as reduced educational opportunities. The flawed labeling cited is based on not taking into account the possibility of a spurious association. Hence, the relationship between ethical positions and interpretation of data is complicated. Is an ethical position that is based on a spurious association purposeful, due to ignorance, or due to not understanding the concept of spurious association, or lack of data, ...?

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    Brent Blumenstein
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  • 6.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-17-2020 15:31
    Edited by Laura Kapitula 06-18-2020 13:46
    The ethical principle stands independently of the data.  Consider the ASA ethical guidelines from which I quote below.  We need to think philosophically about ethics and not use data based arguments. Eugenics is wrong because it does not respect the inherent worth of every human being.  The inherent worth of every human being is a fact that is not up for debate or data based arguments.  I think it is disrespectful of people's humanity to even make a data based argument.   I am pushing this because I think it is extremely important as statisticians that we adhere to a strong ethical code and I feel uncomfortable with a line of reasoning based on confounding.  People's worth is not an empirical question it is a given and an important part of our ethical code.  I think it is racist to use data based arguments in regards to a field such as eugenics and our members of color have been subjected to enough of that.  

    Ethical Guidelines for Statistical PracticeEthical Guidelines for Statistical Practicehttps://www.amstat.org/ASA/Your-Career/Ethical-Guidelines-for-Statistical-Practice.aspx

    ... Above all, professionalism in statistical practice presumes the goal of advancing knowledge while avoiding harm; using statistics in pursuit of unethical ends is inherently unethical.

    Ethical statistical practice does not include, promote, or tolerate any type of professional or scientific misconduct, including, but not limited to, bullying, sexual or other harassment, discrimination based on personal characteristics, or other forms of intimidation. 

    ...






    ------------------------------
    Laura Kapitula
    Associate Professor
    Grand Valley State University
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-18-2020 09:43

    I would like to offer another perspective on this decision, and make a request of the ASA leadership. First of all, while I deplore the concept of eugenics, I had misgivings about this decision. My reasoning was expressed by a previous commenter; we are essentially judging someone born in the 19th century by 21st century ethical standards. This is a tough bar for anyone to pass! However, a decision has now been made, and I encourage my fellow ASA members to support it, as I do, in the interests of "moving forward to form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society," in the words of Ron Wasserstein.

    While supporting this decision, it should be obvious to all of us that there will be more decisions of a similar nature to be made in the future. As I look around the country, and even the world, there are numerous statues and monuments being torn down, as well as buildings and awards being renamed. As an aside, it is a bit shocking that it took this long to tear down confederate monuments, but that is not my point today. Rather, my point is that from my perspective, many of these decisions have been made as "one-offs," in an isolated manner, often driven by emotion or the latest news headlines.

    As a professional society that prides itself on objectivity, I would think that we, the ASA, should be guided in such decisions by sound ethical principles, which could be documented, debated, and modified over time. In fact, we do have ethical guidelines for statistical practice, but I don't think they answer the question of ex post facto guilt. For example, article 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides that "no person be held guilty of any criminal law that did not exist at the time of offence, nor suffer any penalty heavier than what existed at the time of offence." Of course, we are not talking about criminal law here, but I think the ex post facto principle is still relevant.

    In short, while supporting the current decision on renaming the R.A. Fisher Award, I am calling on ASA leadership to consider documentation of principles to be used to guide future decisions on renaming of awards, lectures, buildings, or statistics departments. These should be shared with the membership for input and debate, of course, and modified over time as necessary. I would be happy to help in any way that I could.

    Sincerely, Roger



    ------------------------------
    Roger W. Hoerl
    Manager, Applied Statistics Lab
    GE Global Research
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 10:22
    Why do we name lectureships at all? If it's to "honor" a dead person, like Fisher, then the only people being "honored" are we the living; Fisher doesn't care. Do we all feel honored? If it's to garner material support from potential donors, somehow motivated to give by the naming, can't we think of more effective actions? If it's to "honor" a living person, what are we trying to accomplish by such "honoring?" Is it to prod the "honored" person to greater accomplishments for our general benefit? I'm personally attracted by the objectives of inspiring people to think insightfuly about issues we face as applied mathematicians and striving solvers of quantitative problems, and particularly younger participants in our efforts. If naming something after Fisher is turning people away from these objectives, thwarting our intent, then I see no reason to keep the thing named after Fisher. Regardless, I'd like to see such naming practices supported by clear declarations of what is intended by such naming; and, frankly, "honoring" the recipient seems pretty thin by itself. Even "honoring" the speaker ought to be explained as, say, expanding the minds of our ilk to our betterment by exposing us to new ideas in a context presenting opportunities not found via journal articles or books. I have a fantasy about a Fisher lecture expounding, as a cautionary tale, on how it is that such a smart person can behave so stupidly. How about, "The Daniel Kahneman Lecture for the Prevention of Fisherian Foolishness?"

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    Berne Howard
    Bench Mark Heuristics, LLC
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  • 9.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 12:05
    I applaud the ASA for this move. If we were engaged in an academic discussion about the life of R. A. Fisher, I can see how the application of 21st century ethical standards may not be fair. However, we are not simply discussing his life. We are giving out awards in his name in the 21st century. Therefore, we absolutely have the right to use 21st century ethical standards to make judgments about who we honor.

    ------------------------------
    Nikhil Padhye
    University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston
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  • 10.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 12:17
    Edited by Derrick Cordy 06-19-2020 12:17
    Just to clarify, these sentiments were not accepted back then. There were not accepted by Blacks. They were not ethical sentiments in the eyes of Blacks. So we are judging him by the same exact standard. Our ethical standard for acceptance of racism has not changed.

    Therefore, I believe that is an incredibly biased argument to make because our ancestors were not polled when determining what was acceptable during this time period. 


    ------------------------------
    Derrick Cordy
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-21-2020 19:02

    Derrick,

    I don't defend eugenics and don't know enough about Fisher to assert that he wasn't racist. On the other hand, I think there's a lot of mitigating context that hasn't been presented on this message board and which causes me to seek more information before I make up my mind about Fisher. 

    To your point that eugenic sentiments were not accepted by Blacks. Actually, leading Black intellectuals of the early 20th century did embrace eugenics as part of the Racial Uplift movement. This essay has a good summary. 
    https://nursingclio.org/2017/06/01/the-black-politics-of-eugenics/ 

    This history dissertation is one of the sources cited in the above. 
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.674.852&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    The strongest quotes presented in this forum to damn Fisher as a racist is where he asserts that "the groups of mankind differ in their innate capacity for intellectual and emotional development". I question that assertion.  But in the early 20th century one didn't need to be a white supremacist to express that belief.  See Kealing's "The Characteristics of the Negro People", from the classic essay collection "The Negro Problem" (1903) which also includes essays by Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois. Kealing lists several mental traits which he describes as  "inborn and fundamental, belonging to the race everywhere, in Africa as well as America." where "Inborn qualities are ineradicable; they belong to the blood;" and  which "belong to all [races], but in varying proportions".  
    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15041/15041-h/15041-h.htm#The_Characteristics_of_the_Negro_People

    We could all go on indefinitely and produce articles and quotes from archives to argue whether eugenics (and by implication Fisher) were all about advancing white supremacy, or whether there were eugenicists with other agendas. But for me the key question is: what ideas did Fisher personally advocate and what actions did he take that were harmful to people of other races, specifically those of black African descent? He made assertions that there was between-group hereditary variation of both mental and physical traits across races. But I'm still searching unsuccessfully for any document where he asserts that, say, any one race is inferior or superior to any other, or that people of one ethnicity should therefore be treated differently from any other, or that one nationality should be subservient to another, or that he deemed that people of one group were not capable of serving in one profession or another, or that he blocked the advancement of any ethnicity in the statistical profession. If anything along those lines comes to light, I would not hesitate to condemn Fisher.

    Have I overlooked something?



    ------------------------------
    Stefan Sharkansky, PhD
    Useful Work, Inc.
    Bellevue, WA
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-21-2020 20:10
    Human life is indeed complicated. It is not the first time in history that oppressed people adopt their oppressor's discourse and ideology. So?
    This also shows how prevalent the eugenics discourse had become. Plus it had an aura of "scientificity," no doubt attractive to some intellectuals, even some Black intellectuals. So?
    But it remains that racialist ideologies, among which eugenics, were the intellectual product of those Europeans who believed in the hierarchy of races and in the "naturalness" of social hierarchy--and constituted a "scientific" justification for oppression (racial and social).
    Do we want to celebrate those who espouse that ideology?

    ------------------------------
    Dominic Lusinchi
    Independent researcher & consultant (retired)
    San Francisco, Calif.
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-22-2020 14:28
    Dominic,

    You write: "But it remains that racialist ideologies, among which eugenics, were the intellectual product of those Europeans who believed in the hierarchy of races and in the "naturalness" of social hierarchy--and constituted a "scientific" justification for oppression (racial and social).
    Do we want to celebrate those who espouse that ideology?"

    No, but all  I've heard so far in this forum is that Fisher was one of very many people who exposited some ideas that were lumped together with other ideas that other people used to advance racist oppression. Where is it documented that Fisher personally supported the superiority of whites over  blacks or other races? Where is it documented that he advocated or advanced oppression?  


    ------------------------------
    Stefan Sharkansky
    Useful Work, Inc.
    Bellevue
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 12:11
    I disagree most strenuously with Roger's argument that "we are essentially judging someone born in the 19th century by 21st century ethical standards." The "ethical standards" of equality, tolerance, etc. that we see expressed in the Black Lives Matter movement and allied groups (LGBTQ, etc.) were not invented in the 21st century: they have been around since, at least, the 16th century.

    We should not forgot those who, throughout these centuries, sacrificed much to promote a society that would actually live according to those principles: equality, tolerance, etc. The fact that their voices was often suppressed does not mean that their "ethical standards" did not exist.

    Respectfully -- Dominic

    ------------------------------
    Dominic Lusinchi
    Independent researcher & consultant (retired)
    San Francisco, Calif.
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 13:23
    Thank you to Dominic Lusinchi for that response. I agree strongly with his perspective. I think perhaps we are over-thinking and over-dissecting the main issue. That is, we are at a pivotal time where (at least as a very preliminary starting point) we have to recognize that the Black community and other minorities have long been discriminated against, including by the research community. Renaming or retiring the a lecture named after someone who is on record as voicing perspectives that have been part of the problem is essential. May not help anything concretely, and it may be seen as an emotionally charged one-off move, but not taking that tiny step is, in my opinion, rather tone deaf to the major challenges many face. I do not think it matters what century or decade they lived in, or what the context was for their statements. If we rationalize continuing the lecture it will rightly be seen as a confirmation of those views. It does not change what Fisher has accomplished and it really does not matter if he is alive or dead, nor do we need to check references of people that knew him. I know I will continue to quote and credit him with his many accomplishments in my courses, but let's take a small step to at least recognize the injustices many have faced. 
    Just my thoughts. 
    Best, Doug


    ------------------------------
    Douglas Landsittel
    Professor of Biomedical Informatics
    University of Pittsburgh
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 15:46
    Yes, Doug, and we should thank Derrick Cordy and our colleagues who are members of communities who have been at the receiving end of eugenics and kindred ideologies, because their perspectives matter more than ours at this historic juncture. So let's listen and learn.

    Respectfully -- Dominic

    ------------------------------
    Dominic Lusinchi
    Independent researcher & consultant (retired)
    San Francisco, Calif.
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 19:45
    Dominic -

    I think in your understandable fervor you are misinterpreting Roger. After all, in another context President Obama - in my considered opinion one of the best presidents the US has ever had, by the way - not long ago reportedly noted how people tend to be rigid. I think Roger was just noting that there probably were no 19th century black British statisticians. Do we recognize that as wrong now? Yes. Of course. There is no need to attack anyone. (BTW, if Fisher wasn't normalized in his day, he would not have "Sir" in front of his name.)

    My assumption was that Roger was proposing that there be a more organized approach to future changes. He expressed his support for this change. I think he was suggesting that in the future a more dispassionate, ordered approach might be best.

    As far as Fisher goes, I've heard he was sexist as well. Not someone I want to have met anyway.

    Now that the decision has been made to drop Fisher's name from the award and move on, perhaps we can be less divisive.

    Forward together.


    ------------------------------
    James Knaub (Jim)
    Retired Lead Mathematical Statistician
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-20-2020 00:29
    Hear hear!
    And apologies for misinterpreting and for appearing rigid; also for my comments if they came across as an 'attack,' which was certainly not my intention; they were simply meant as a dissent not an advocacy for divisiveness.
    Thank you, Jim. Forward all together indeed!

    ------------------------------
    Dominic Lusinchi
    Independent researcher & consultant (retired)
    San Francisco, Calif.
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-20-2020 09:42
    I want to say on record that I do not think Dominic was attacking anyone or at all being divisive; he was making a very important point. I agree strongly with him that ethical standards did not suddenly arise in the last 100 years. I would refer you to the posts from Derrick Cordy who makes the points far more convincingly that I ever could.  

    ------------------------------
    Douglas Landsittel
    Professor of Biomedical Informatics
    University of Pittsburgh
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-20-2020 14:52
    Hello,

    I would like to respond to the comments regarding application of current cultural standards to previous times. That attitude assumes a linear progression of thought, from accepting racism and sexism to slowly tearing it down. As if racism and sexism have always been a part of human nature, it has taken our will power to dismantle it, and we are, slowly and surely. I don't think the evidence supports this view, but at the very least, we should examine the assumption. 

    Eugenics can be thought of as a set of scientific beliefs borne of the hubris of scientists and of the geopolitical situation where colonialism was common. Many European peoples put forth the notion that white Europeans were not only technologically superior to peoples in Africa, Asia, Latin America and Pacific Islands, but also biologically superior. These arguments were used to justify the presence of Europeans as colonial powers in other nations, the position of Black Americans in the U.S. and continuing to deny women standard rights such as voting. 

    Eugenics was remarkably popular among many scientific disciplines from plant breeders and geneticists to statisticians. That its popularity continued for so many decades (Eugenics courses were taught well into the 1960s), is likely a function of the groups commonly excluded from pursuing scientific careers: women and people of color. So many undesirable traits such feeble mindedness, pauperism, hysteria, criminality, laziness, were associated with being poor, being Black or Brown, being a woman. Had those groups been allowed to attend college and become respected scientists, would eugenics have become as popular as it did? Many people have been advocating for equality of race and gender, even during the period that Pearson and Fisher lived, but their voices were deemed less worthy of being heard and their views ultimately dismissed by those with power. 

    The removal of Confederate monuments fits in this framework. Those were erected to signal to Black people their place in the Southern social hierarchy. Many individuals and groups have been advocating for the removal only to be met with resistance from local and state governments. These governments themselves are not fully representative of their populations due to voter suppression. What appears to to be a reactionary and "emotional" removal of monuments, is actually the product of decades of efforts to remove the statue and restore the rights of Black people.  

    It is ironic to see the use of the UN declaration of Human Rights being used a shield for now deceased eugenicists. No one is accusing Fisher of a crime. Indeed even now, it is not illegal to be a eugenicist. This is about making our science inclusive and welcoming to people of color. In order to do so, those individuals need to see themselves represented in their disciplines and need to be able to receive honors that aren't named after individuals advocating for their oppression. We should ponder how long Black and Brown people have been (and still are) denied basic rights described by the aforementioned UN Declaration. 

    I think it is naive to imagine we can come up with "objective" standards for renaming awards - as if our current views are not already deeply embedded in upholding the status quo and current structure of power.  Honestly, I think we can and should be spending our time and energy pondering how our tools, knowledge and our discipline as a whole have been used to uphold structures of white supremacy. How has statistics been complicit in allowing racism and sexism to proliferate? What can we do to fix this? Myself and others may not have been eugenicists, but, it is our responsibility as humans to fix the lasting impacts from eugenics in our spheres of influence.

    ------------------------------
    Julia Piaskowski
    Statistician
    University of Idaho
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-21-2020 21:44
    While I agree that the Fisher lecture should not continue in its current form, I would still urge some caution about exactly how to handle it. It would be a great pity if R.A. Fisher's seminal contributions to statistics were dismissed with a blanket statement that he was a eugenicist, without any examination of exactly what did he believe and why is it controversial.

    Eugenics was a fashionable movement in Britain and some other countries around 1900, that became thoroughly discredited during the Nazi era. It does Fisher no credit that he apparently stuck to his guns as late as the 1950s, but I'd still like to know exactly what he said and in what context - there's a distinction between supporting a scientific theory that's later discredited, and actively advocating discrimination, which I don't think was ever Fisher's intent.

    I feel the issue of intent is important. An earlier contributor mentioned Silent Sam, the confederate monument at the University of North Carolina that was permanently removed after a year-long tussle with the university's board of governors, who wanted to preserve it. The argument that eventually carried the day was that documents and a dedication speech from the year the statue was erected demonstrated clearly that the intent was to assert white supremacy. What was the intent of Fisher's 1960s supporters who originally created the lectureship? My own scientific career doesn't go back that far, but I believe even at that time, Fisher's views on eugenics were regarded as an embarrassment, though not enough of one to overshadow his contributions to statistics. If we are going to take a different view now, it seems to me that (fairly and appropriately) reflects a commitment to diversity and inclusiveness that was probably never a part of Fisher's thinking. But let's not demonize Fisher, or those who originally created this lectureship, by attributing to them motives that they probably never had and would not have accepted if they had been presented to them in those terms.

    I would urge COPSS to set up a commission to look into all aspects of the Fisher lectureship, including a careful examination of Fisher's writings on eugenics, and come up with a clear recommendation for the future - whether to abolish the lectureship entirely, rename it after someone else, or possibly preserve Fisher's name in some form while not denying the negative aspects of his scientific legacy. I would be glad to assist with that effort if asked.

    ------------------------------
    Richard Smith
    University of North Carolina
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-21-2020 11:13
    Edited by Jana Asher 06-21-2020 11:13
    I'd like to add some additional perspectives to this discussion.

    1. Frankly, from everything that I have read about Fisher, he simply was a very difficult person. Take his stance on Bayes, his treatment of Jeffreys, his well-known animosity toward Pearson, etc. As James Knaub points out, he was sexist as well. Is this the type of role model we want younger statisticians to emulate?

    2. Eugenics is unacceptable and it is hurtful toward statisticians of color to be honoring a man that represented the worst of the intellectual ideas of his era. As a Jewish person, I have to ask: would anyone feel it would be okay to honor a Nazi, no matter how large that Nazi's contributions were to a scientific field? 

    I strongly support the ASA's decision. I don't need a complex analysis of eugenics to support this decision, because this isn't a decision about data. It is a decision based on what is morally and ethically appropriate, as Laura Kapitula points out. Roger Hoerl's argument is that we shouldn't judge Pearson with 21st century standards, and I agree with Julia Piaskowski that it is ironic that he uses the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a basis for his argument. Perhaps he is unaware that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was written in response to the genocide that occurred during World War II. I sincerely doubt Eleanor Roosevelt and the other drafters of that particular document would consider the ex post facto principle to be relevant to this decision. 

    I believe Derrick Cordy and Dominic Lusinchi make the most important point: Eugenics was not universally accepted in the 19th century, let alone now. To behave as if Fisher was acceptable because eugenics was acceptable is to say that we only accept the "white" version of historical events, which, due to prejudices in the recording of history that have been pervasive for centuries, discounts the experiences and contributions of people of color.

    So are we going to take the "white" position on history to validate Fisher, because Fisher was acceptable back then according to our biased viewpoint as to what the world looked like in the 19th century? Or, to reframe what Julia Piaskowski writes, are we going to acknowledge that the assumption that Fisher's viewpoint was acceptable in the 19th century is, in itself, based on a position of white privilege that we need to dismantle? 

    It is a difficult process to examine your own prejudices and assumptions and to really listen to people that have been hurt by your actions, intentional or not. This is going to be a very long process of self-discovery for each of us, and for all of us together as a discipline. Let's start by listening carefully to what our colleagues of color have to say without feeling that we need to create a defensive argument. Even those of us that might be directly connected to Fisher, either through academic connections or through genetic ones, need to be willing to listen and accept that the perspective of those harmed by eugenics, both in the past and today, is more important than the perspective of the perpetrators of the harm. 

    ------------------------------
    Jana Asher
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-21-2020 13:43

    Why do we name lectureships at all?  If it's to "honor" a dead person, like Fisher, then the only people being "honored" are we the living; Fisher doesn't care.  Do we all feel honored?  If it's to garner material support from potential donors, somehow motivated to give by the naming, can't we think of more effective actions?  If it's to "honor" a living person, what are we trying to accomplish by such "honoring?"  Is it to prod the "honored" person to greater accomplishments for our general benefit?  I'm personally attracted by the objectives of inspiring people to think insightfully about issues we face as applied mathematicians and striving solvers of quantitative problems, and particularly younger participants in our efforts.  If naming something after Fisher is turning people away from these objectives, thwarting our intent, then I see no reason to keep the thing named after Fisher.  Regardless, I'd like to see such naming practices supported by clear declarations of what is intended by such naming; and, frankly, "honoring" the recipient seems pretty thin by itself.  Even "honoring" the speaker ought to be explained as, say, expanding the minds of our ilk to our betterment by exposing us to new ideas in a context presenting opportunities not found via journal articles or books.  I have a fantasy about a Fisher lecture expounding, as a cautionary tale, on how it is that such a smart person can behave so stupidly.  How about, "The Daniel Kahneman Lecture for the Prevention of Fisherian Foolishness?"

     






  • 24.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-21-2020 14:30
    So, moving on, it seems that in the past lectures have been named after people, and then the recipient of an award gives a paper often relating her/his work to that person's work.

    If lectures/awards are no longer named after anyone, as Berne suggested, which would avoid later arguments over the selection, then it remains to be determined how to distinguish one lecture/award from another. Perhaps this could be by topic. It probably should not be by section, as some are much bigger than others. For example, survey statistics would cover a lot, so you may want to be more specific. Also, one might want a paper on the most creative new idea. Other possibilities?

    ------------------------------
    James Knaub (Jim)
    Retired Lead Mathematical Statistician
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-24-2020 22:52
    Thank you to the ASA leadership for the decision to support retiring/renaming the Fisher lecture. In contrast to many statements against this move, I strongly believe any other step would have put us on the wrong side of history. This is a minor step though. I hope we can do more in the future to highlight both the negatives, alongside the positives, of where research has either taken society or simply reflected the inequalities, and better move us in the right direction. It might be useful looking at how awards, scholarships, etc. are structured. 
    Best, Doug

    ------------------------------
    Douglas Landsittel
    Professor of Biomedical Informatics
    University of Pittsburgh
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-16-2020 21:13
    Hi Everyone,
        
           There are people I respect and admire on both sides of the Fisher Lecture issue.  I hope we can find a process for making this decision that will avoid too much bitterness about whatever outcome emerges.  Perhaps a moderated written debate, or a member survey?
       
           Frankly, my concern about implicit bias in our professional society centers more around the fact that no statistician of Chinese ancestry has ever been president of the ASA, despite a very large number of highly qualified people.   And Chinese statisticians are underrepresented in nearly all offices, despite their large numbers and conspicuous contributions to the profession.

    ------------------------------
    David Banks
    SAMSI/Duke University
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-16-2020 22:19
    Thanks for the response David. While I think this is inevitably an issue that will elicit strong feelings, I'll borrow a line frequently used by SROs at study sections and say we can "criticize or disagree with the ideas, not the people". I also agree that underrepresentation of other minority groups is a huge problem.   

    To be honest, I have doubts that a survey or moderated debate will help the issue. Instead, I would suggest that we provide a format for those in the underrepresented groups to share their experiences for the rest of us to listen to - not argue with, not critique, but to listen. I'll speak for myself and say, as a middle aged white male, I cannot put myself in the shoes of others from different backgrounds. The Black community, and other minority groups do not need to hear from me. I need to listen to them. These types of discussion boards do not lend themselves to that type of format. Perhaps a late-breaking special session at ASA to start.

    Thanks again for your comments. Doug

    ------------------------------
    Douglas Landsittel
    Professor of Biomedical Informatics
    University of Pittsburgh
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-17-2020 09:56
    My thanks to the ASA Leadership for leading by example. Raceology, the "science" of the early 1900, which in the US was centered around the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory and it was supported by Carnegie and other benefactors who felt threatened by the waves of immigrants of non-Nordic race, has affected large numbers of people and its echoes are still heard and felt. A session at the ASA National Meeting may be dedicated to present historically (the book War Against the Weak by Edwin Black may be a good reference) and scientifically (An analysis of the experimental methods and study designs to prove hypotheses) raceology and to locate Sir Ronald Fisher in that "scientific" movement. 

    Valerio M. Genta, MD
    Pathologist
    Sentara Virginia Beach General Hospital

    ------------------------------
    Valerio Genta
    Virginia Beach General Hospital
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-17-2020 23:13
    Before such a change ask C.R. Rao and D.R. Cox about Fisher and racism. They should have direct knowledge on the matter.

    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Burnham
    Colorado State University
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  • 30.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-18-2020 09:50
    C. R. Rao was Fisher's Ph. D. student. He will turn 100 this September. It is a good idea to ask him about Fisher.

    ------------------------------
    J. Rao
    Carleton University
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  • 31.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 08:37

    To supplement Dr. J. Rao's suggestion, just consider C.R. Rao's influence on statistical science, which perhaps could best be seen here:

    https://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=40000



    ------------------------------
    David Bernklau
    (David Bee on Internet)
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-19-2020 12:00
    Respectfully, are any of the people that would be speaking on Fisher's character Black?

    My Black ancestors cannot speak for themselves either. These sentiments by Fisher were viewed as "criminal" then by my ancestors. My ancestors had no vote on the matter. See NC Eugenics Board as a reference for those that are not familiar with the negative consequences of Eugenics directly on African-Americans.

    It is also revisionist history to ignore that our ancestors never agreed with this sentiment of the day. 
    If if we are going to speak to Fisher's students it would also only be fair to speak to our Black ancestors from this time?

    African-American women who are still alive were sterilized in the late 1960s. The acceptance of these sentiments were only accepted by own portion of society. 

    There is incredible bias in the arguments that Fisher's sentiment were accepted at the time. That "acceptance" by other races was not consensual. We were very much against Eugenics; then and now.

    Therefore, the "man of this time" arguments are incredibly flawed unless the goal is to also minimize our ancestors sentiments.

    ------------------------------
    Derrick Cordy
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-24-2020 22:52

    I am writing to protest the removal of Fisher's name.  Removing the names of statistics pioneers from lectures, awards, buildings and lecture halls (University College London has had similar discussion regarding Galton and Pearson because they also had ties to eugenics) fits in with the currently popular if-you-ever-said-or-did-something-we-claim-we-don't-like,-you-should-lose-your-career-and-reputation movement. These statistics pioneers were people of their times.  How shameful it is that statisticians had the gall to want to even exist in society as it was back then.  How shameful it was that people of their times didn't have the enlightenment of today.  Progress and enlightenment are necessarily evolutionary and sometimes arrived at through pain.  It is necessary that this be recognized.  That aside, I propose that each of the individuals who came up with the recommendation to change the name should never have anything named after them because they violate the sense of morality I happen to have at this moment or might have in the future, and that the ASA close up shop because it once honored Fisher and his ilk.  Sorry for being sarcastic, but I see a bigger picture in the movement to rename awards, rename forts, tear down statues, deface monuments and such.  While some discussants try to weigh the tenth decimal place of a nit of a pro against the tenth decimal place of a nit of a con in arriving at a decision, we should not miss that this name removal is but one small part of a bigger picture – the cancel-culture anarchy and the eradication of history.  We should not roll over.



    ------------------------------
    [Mick] [Norton]
    [Professor Emeritus]
    [College of Charleston][]
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-25-2020 10:44
    Thanks for this comment which is helping me fit this discussion into place in my mind.  It came around the same time as a discussion of a meme that seems to be floating around on Facebook along the lines of
    "Why should we be expected to get rid of our statues when the Germans still keep their concentration camps?". 
    Perhaps not everybody is aware of this, but anyone actually familiar with the latter is well aware that those come with a very clear message of heartfelt anguish and deep remorse, together with an equally clear message of "these are preserved in an attempt to ensure this never happens again".
    Confederate statues on the other hand were erected in a completely opposite spirit.  In fact, it is clear from documentation at the time that the well known Silent Sam statue on the UNC campus was erected as intimidation and to sustain the oppression called white supremacy.
    The point missed in this message is that there is a fundamental difference between "history" and "glorification".  Moves to remove statues are not about "eradication of history", they are about adjusting for past glorification that now looks horrific in our eyes.  My personal vote is for moving statues from locations of glorification (e.g. Monument Avenue in Richmond) to something like a memorial garden where they can be put into context in the same spirit as the Germans have done with concentration camps: a factual remembrance of the atrocities, together with an apology and a firm commitment to doing much better in the future.
    Another more interesting point in this message is that there is actual agreement with a view expressed earlier (from somebody with an obviously different viewpoint) that naming things like building etc.  after people is a bad idea.  There seems agreement that none of us is perfect, and all have done things we come to regret later in life.  
    One more little point: where did the above meme come from?  To me it smells like a Russian bot post, on the grounds that Russians understand the German concentration camps and would love to conflate things in that way. But another view is that some American bigots are big WWII buffs who know concentration camps, but have never actually been to see them, and thus don't know the context.

    ------------------------------
    J. S. (Steve) Marron
    University of North Carolina
    Chapel Hill NC
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: COPSS Fisher Award

    Posted 06-26-2020 21:51
    Dear ASA Community,

    I agree with the ASA's recommendation that Ron has shared. I also echo Dave's comment about diversity given many talents in our professional societies.

    The various COPSS committees may also consider embracing diversity and representatives from various career sectors via the nomination process. For example, there are many industry and government statisticians, but they are rarely nominated. The "grand" award prize may also consider recognizing those from different areas of statistical sciences. 

    The COPSS website says: "COPSS was originally formed as a committee of the elected leadership of the founding societies of the Joint Statistical Meetings (JSM), and that structure remains in place today." 

    "Any other society formally designated as a joint sponsor of the current year's JSM is automatically designated as a "Friend of COPSS" and invited to a special joint meeting of COPSS and Friends of COPSS at the JSM."

    Since the statistical community, as a big tent of statistics, has expanded considerably, why not permit "Friends of COPSS" to petition into the COPSS family? They may then nominate officers. Right now, COPSS is quite exclusive, and the statistical sciences have since evolved. 

    COPSS' website: https://community.amstat.org/copss/home



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    Kelly H. Zou, PhD, PStat, ASA Fellow
    ------------------------------