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Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

  • 1.  Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-08-2017 11:22

    I wrote the following in response to a question from a student regarding a one sample t-test: The notation for the null hypothesis is a mathematical way of expressing the belief that our sample statistic (e.g., x-bar) differs from the population parameter (mu) only because of sampling error (chance).  If/when we declare statistical significance, we are stating that our sample statistic did not come from the null sampling distribution, but from some other, alternative sampling distribution.  However, now the burden for the researcher shifts to defining/determining the center (mu) of this alternative sampling distribution from which the observed sample mean was presumably plucked.

    This exchange reminded me that Frequentist theory is clear on how to achieve the first goal (statistical significance), but seems to be silent or vague about the latter.  Specifically, Meeks & D’Agostino (1983) pointed out that unconditional confidence intervals after a significance test most likely “do not cover the parameter as nominally stated.” Furthermore, based on their simulations, they concluded that even “conditional estimation is probably bad practice in most situations. “  Therefore, can/should statisticians offer any kind of point and/or interval estimate of the “alternative parameter” after rejecting the “null parameter” with a statistical test (or similarly used a confidence interval to test the null)?  

    Meeks SL, and D’Agostino RB. A Note on the Use of Confidence Limits Following Rejection of a Null Hypothesis. The American Statistician, Vol. 37, No. 2 (May, 1983), pp. 134-136



    ------------------------------
    Eugene Komaroff, Ph.D.
    Professor of Education
    Keiser University Graduate School
    1900 W. Commercial Blvd.
    Fort Lauderdale, FL 33309
    ekomaroff@keiseruniversity.edu
    973-900-2963
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-09-2017 04:06
    This problem has been receiving much research attention recently under the title of 'selective inference' or 'post selection inference' and much can be found on these topics on arXive (yet unpublished). The particular question raised is that of inference on a parameter following its estimator (or the absolute value of its estimator) is above a threshold. The first reference regarding this problem goes far back to Hedges (1984). More recent work include Weinstein Fithian & Benjamini (2013) and Fithian, Sun, & Taylor 2015 (latest version on arXive.)
    The question being addressed in other recent publications is even broader; inference on the significance on the next to introduce explanatory variable into a model, inference on parameters after selecting a model; inference on the parameters corresponding to the largest 5 estimators out of many; i and so on. There are also a few different approaches even within the frequentist paradigm.
    While solutions are not simple, most of current research works offer software.

    ------------------------------
    Yoav Benjamini
    Professor
    Tel Aviv University
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  • 3.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-09-2017 21:33
    Eugene Komoroff said, " If/when we declare statistical significance, we are stating that our sample statistic did not come from the null sampling distribution, but from some other, alternative sampling distribution. "

    That is stronger than what statistical significance says. Statistical significance only says that our sample statistic would be unusual if the null hypothesis were true.

    ------------------------------
    Martha Smith
    University of Texas
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  • 4.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-10-2017 09:40
    Thank you Professor Benjamini for the references.  Although I will not have time/energy to get into these papers until Summer break, given your remark "there are also a few different approaches even within the frequentist paradigm," perhaps "selective inference"  is where Bayesians and Frequentist can find some common ground. Dear Professor Smith: if statistical significance meant "only" that "our sample statistic would be unusual if the null hypothesis were true" then you are not helping your students appreciate the next and more important step. The null hypothesis is exact, e.g, Ho: mu equals 0.  The alternative hypothesis is not exact:  mu does not equal zero.  If say, we found p < .05, we rejected the null or decided that it was not true (i.e., mu does not equal to zero).  The statistical test has led us to conclude that the observed sample statistic (e.g, x-bar) did not come from the sampling distribution that is centered at zero.  So, what value is at the center of the sampling distribution (mu = ?) from which the observed sample statistic was "randomly" plucked?  Do you agree that this is a good question for your students to contemplate?  Note, an exact "alternative mu" is certainly required for a prioir sample size/power calculations, but what post hoc estimate of mu is appropriate/reasonable?  Given the Meeks & D'Agostino article, I do not know the answer so reached out to the association of statisticians for help/advice. 
       
    Eugene Komaroff
    Professor of Education
    Keiser University Graduate School     





  • 5.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-10-2017 08:17
    The previous poster wrote, " .. can/should statisticians offer any kind of point and/or interval estimate of the 'alternative parameter' after rejecting the 'null parameter' with a statistical test ..."

    Would either a posterior credible interval or a likelihood set answer your question?  

    Michael Lavine






  • 6.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-13-2017 08:28
    Michael Lavine asked: "Would either a posterior credible interval or a likelihood set answer your question?"  Perhaps. however, I am not versed in Bayesian methods.  Can you illustrate/explain/elaborate on how Frequentist and Bayesian methods might be used to triangulate on an estimate of an alternative parameter?
    Eugene Komaroff
    Professor of Education
    Keiser University Graduate School    





  • 7.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-13-2017 12:28
    Think of how a confidence interval is constructed. It is a set of hypotheses none if which can be rejected by these data. Thus if a 95 percent C I contains zero (the null hyp), it may also contain parameter values that are of interest and cannot be rejected.

    David Salsburg

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 8.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-14-2017 15:09
    David Salsburg stated: "Thus if a 95 percent CI contains zero (the null hyp), it may also contain parameter values that are of interest and cannot be rejected."  This comment seems to address a different question. I am asking whether it is OK to consider the values that are contained in a statistically significant CI as potential parameter estimates under the alternative hypothesis? That is what I used to tell students, but now after reading the Meeks & D'Agostino article, I am not sure.  Is there anything wrong with what I have been telling my students?
    Eugene Komaroff
    Professor of Education
    Keiser University Graduate School      





  • 9.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-15-2017 11:09

    Mixing confidence limits and hypothesis testing into the same sentence may just confuse the issue.  They use the same mathematics but they address different problems. 



    ------------------------------
    Emil M Friedman, PhD
    emilfriedman@gmail.com
    http://www.statisticalconsulting.org
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-16-2017 08:26
    In answer to Dr. Friedman's comments and slightly away from the discussion of post selection.

    Perhaps the faster way to grasp any understanding why we need to combine confidence intervals to hypothesis tests is to read the 1991 Tukey's paper  The philosophy of multiple comparisons.
    Unfortunately, nowadays, Tukey's 1991 words can be easily extended from hypothesis tests to p-values as well. 
    Hypothesis tests are based on point estimators, same as the p-values. But they still serve as a pretty useful primary tool. It would be unprofessional from us to stop using them or ban them completely.
    Instead, we should give more effort toward new methods that also utilize confidence intervals. Using confidence intervals for the purpose of hypothesis testing seems to be a better way to gain more power over the results obtained by the point estimators. 

    Hypothesis tests and confidence intervals live in a useful mathematical duality. In short, this means that acceptance regions can be translated into the parameter space to form confidence intervals.
    Most hypothesis tests relay on a well defined acceptance region and a rejection region, and there is a direct duality (Lehmann *, pp 89-90, 1986) between the confidence interval, the part of the parameter space which overlaps with the acceptance region.  

    * Lehmann, E.L. (1986). Testing Statistical Hypotheses (2nd ed)., New York: John Wiley.


    Vered Madar, PhD






  • 11.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-17-2017 12:03
    Emil Friedman stated: "Mixing confidence limits and hypothesis testing into the same sentence may just confuse the issue."  I am merely expressing the fact that mixing can be readily found, for instance, in medical/epi research papers.  This was also observed by du Prell et al. (2009):  

    "People who read scientific articles must be familiar with the interpretation of p-values and confidence intervals when assessing the statistical findings. Some will have asked themselves why a p-value is given as a measure of statistical probability in certain studies, while other studies give a confidence interval and still others give both."  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2689604/   I see no reason for using confidence limits for determining statistical significance, because p-values are simply easier to understand. However, they have been misunderstood by practitioners, which motivated the recent statement about p-values from the ASA.  However, I do see the value of confidence intervals for estimating parameters.  I am simply asking the community of statisticians, can a CI serve as both an indicator of statistical significance, where the null parameter [theta(0)] has been specified exactly, therefore known: Ho: theta = theta(0);  and simultaneously serve as an interval estimator for an alternative parameter (theta) that is assumed fixed, but can be anywhere in the parameter space except at the null value, i.e., H1 theta ≠ theta(0).   Incidentally H(0) does not mean the null parameter has to be equal to zero, but does have to be an exact, specific value postulated under the null. 

     



    ------------------------------
    Eugene Komaroff
    Keiser University
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  • 12.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-20-2017 02:39
    A simple test of significance specifies a null hypothesis, an alternative hypothesis, and a level of significance. The result is rejection or non-rejection of the null hypothesis in favor of the alternative hypothesis, at the level of significance.

    A confidence interval consists of all null hypotheses that are rejected for a specified alternative hypothesis at specified level of significance, so it includes the result for the simple test with a specified null hypothesis.

    A p-value indicates all levels of significance at which a specified null hypothesis is rejected in favor of a specified alternative hypothesis, so it includes the result for the simple test with a specified level of significance.

    Confidence intervals and p-values are both useful summaries of multiple simple tests.




  • 13.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-21-2017 08:06
    I do not see how an alternative hypothesis such as H1: theta ≠ theta(0)  can be considered specific (exact) when the null hypothesis is rejected.  That's like saying, we rejected the moon, but all else that shines in the nigh sky is a good candidate for our theory.   I also see nothing wrong with considering p-values as a point on a evidence strength continuum.  However, for me a significant p-value is stronger evidence than a non-significant one. 
    Eugene Komaroff
    Keiser University  





  • 14.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-22-2017 09:03
    Your example is not a "simple" hypothesis of the type I was considering, in which both the null and alternative hypotheses are specified--meaning that they are single values--but rather includes a single null hypothesis value and a compound alternative hypothesis composed of many values. Testing that is may be formulated in terms of simple hypotheses as a multiple comparisons problem with each comparison having the same null hypothesis value and one of the alternative hypothesis values. In your example, all these simple tests for a specified level of significance are one of two one-sided tests, according to the direction of the alternative hypothesis value. If any alternative value on one side is rejected, all of them on that side are rejected. Thus the conclusion is not to reject the null hypothesis in favor of any of the alternative hypotheses, or to rejected the null hypothesis in favor of all the alternatives on one side. This differs from your conclusion, for which rejection of the null hypothesis would be in favor of all alternative hypothesis values on both sides.




  • 15.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-23-2017 16:00
    I see no reason to complicate this discussion with ANOVA and one tailed tests.  I re-state my question as I as I originally started this thread with reference to a one sample t-test.  I have an exact value for theta specified under the null Ho: theta = theta(0) and then a "universe of values" under the two tailed alternative Ha: theta ≠ theta(0), except for the one, exact value that was specified under the null. Let's say p < .05.  Can anyone recommend an approach or method that can give me an interval estimate for theta after rejecting the null? 
    Eugene Komaroff
    Keiser University 





  • 16.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-25-2017 17:25
    In previous posts, you asked about what distribution one would consider if you reject the null?  Recall that the F, Chi-square, t, etc have non-central distributions that would apply if the null is rejected.  If you wanted to develop an interval estimate for the parameter if the null is rejected I would see no reason why re-sampling/bootstrapping from your sample would not be an acceptable way to get an interval estimate.  As you noted before, the bayesian solution would be to use prior information and your sample to come up with a posterior distribution/bayesian credible interval, however if you aren't comfortable with that I would simply suggest a bootstrapped estimate.

    note: estimating the noncentral distribution is not something I think is done commonly as you would run into the same problem initially with having to find appropriate non-centrality parameters(s) to get the best estimate.  If you search this out however, there are some places that describe it, but as noted re-sampling or bayesian techniques would be a lot easier.

    ------------------------------
    Michael Machiorlatti
    Phd Candidate - University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-27-2017 10:19
    RE:  "the bayesian solution would be to use prior information and your sample to come up with a posterior distribution/bayesian credible interval, however if you aren't comfortable with that I would simply suggest a bootstrapped estimate."  As I believe is well known, the quality of the bootstrap solution depends on the quality of the observed sample, which may be suspect especially when data are collected by convenience sampling (are only assumed to be random).  The Bayesian solution is most interesting indeed as that permits considerations, external to the observed data, to enter the formula. However, for me these solutions (and others that were offered off-line) require a reference.  One poster implied these exist, however, did not offer any citations.  In any event, if no references exist then I see an opportunity here for a methods paper in a high impact, peer reviewed "statistics journal" by someone who is well versed in mathematical proofs and probability theory (not me).  Subsequent implementation in well engineered software would be a valuable contribution for practitioners.   
    Eugene Komaroff
    Professor of Education
    Keiser University Graduate School       





  • 18.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-28-2017 08:20
    My favorite reference for Bayesian Data Analysis is Bayesian Data Analysis, by Andrew Gelman et al.

    Home page for the book, "Bayesian Data Analysis"
    Columbia remove preview
    Home page for the book, "Bayesian Data Analysis"
    View this on Columbia >


    You only mentioned interest in references, but I'll also suggest a couple of great introductions that can serve as references as well.

    Before reading Bayesian Data Analysis I found Simon Jackman's Bayesian Analysis for the Social Sciences to be accessible and practical, while covering enough theory to provide a good foundation and tie things together.  (Jackman recommends Bernardo's Bayesian Theory as a reference for theory.  I find it helpful but usually need to look up details of application, not theory.)

    After reading Bayesian Data Analysis I found a book that I think I'm going to start recommending as a go-to advanced introduction: Richard McElreath's Statistical Rethinking presents a bottom-up introduction to Bayesian methods that makes intuitive sense while making the theory easier to quickly grasp.  McElreath treats statistical methods as tools for scientists to use and understand, and his sympathy for the scientist appears to motivate his treatment of dangers and mitigations.



    ------------------------------
    Edward Cashin
    Research Scientist II
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 03-01-2017 08:58
    Thank you for the references to books.  However, Bayesians do not compute p-values so I doubt they offer any help for someone asking how to estimate the alternative parameter when the null parameter has been significantly rejected by a p-value.  I am familiar with Empirical Bayes from running Mixed Models, but now I suspect the CIs for the "fixed effects" as estimators of an alternative parameter also lack credible coverage. Again, I used to believe (and teach) that the CI was a useful estimator for alternative parameter(s) after a significant p-value.  Is there any book or article out there that supports this point of view?  In other words, provides a counterpoint to the Meeks & D'Agostino argument.  At this point, all I can tell students is that when they reject the null parameter with a significant p-value: "don't worry, be happy" -  I don't know what you found, but you can still publish an article. Incidentally, "effect size" is needed for a priori sample size calculations with regard to an appropriate non-central probability distribution, but not for post hoc estimation/explanation. 
    Eugene Komaroff
    Professor of Education
    Keiser University Graduate School     





  • 20.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 03-02-2017 09:29
    Some people use the posterior predictive distribution to say that zero doesn't occur inside the 95% confidence interval, and that is evidence for statistical significance.  At that point one can use the mode of the posterior predictive distribution as the maximum a posteriori point estimate and call it a day, so yes.  That's the easy answer, but Andrew Gelman and Richard McElreath seem to be emphasizing a few caveats.

    I'm still catching up on everything they (and others) are saying, but here are a few points.

    McElreath's book does a great job of reminding the reader that model choice is important, and that statistically significant positive results from the model don't necessarily reflect truths in the real world.  He has a series of lectures on YouTube where he talks to students about these issues, encouraging them to tackle the difficult issues of model selection and evaluation.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFv2vS8ESkk&list=PLDcUM9US4XdMdZOhJWJJD4mDBMnbTWw_z

    Gelman points out that statistical significance can be detected even when the sign of the effect is wrong.  He often blogs about sensational findings that are based on "noisy data".

      Gelman 2014 - "Beyond Power Calculations: Assessing Type S (Sign) and Type M (Magnitude) Errors"
      http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/PPS551642_REV2.pdf

      http://andrewgelman.com/2016/10/25/how-not-to-analyze-noisy-data-a-case-study/

    Smaldino and McElreath argue that when statistical significance is the main support for positive results, and novel results are rewarded with prestigious publications, academics will tend to produce more false positives.

      Smaldino 2016 - "The natural selection of bad science"
      http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royopensci/3/9/160384.full.pdf

    Gelman attempts to dissuade readers from any attempt to transition from p-values to similar Bayesian alternatives.  He doesn't really seem to want an on/off switch like p<0.05.  I think he wants greater understanding of the subtle issues of using data to support science.

      http://andrewgelman.com/2015/09/04/p-values-and-statistical-practice-2/

    I'm excited to see the rest of McElreath's lectures (URL above), because he's aware of these issues and yet appears to be doing well in educating students.

    ------------------------------
    Edward Cashin
    Research Scientist II
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  • 21.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-28-2017 22:27
    I'm not entirely clear just what your application is, but it is possible that Brad Efron's book Large-Scale Inference: Empirical Bayes Methods for Estimation, Testing, and Prediction might be helpful to you.

     



    ------------------------------
    Martha Smith
    University of Texas
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-20-2017 09:06
    A previous poster said, "I see no reason for using confidence limits for determining statistical significance, because p-values are simply easier to understand."  Personally, I see no reason for determining statistical significance.  Strength of evidence is continuous.  I don't see the purpose of dichotomizing it.





  • 23.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-10-2017 13:42
    It sounds like Meeks and D’Agostino were writing about situations where multiple testing is involved.  For example, one tests multiple feeds until one gets a feed for which the null hypothesis is rejected.  Or we test multiple responses until we see one that's "interesting".  Or we test the effect of multiple X's and compute (a) confidence limit(s) on whichever one(s) is/are significant.

    In all such cases we need to use some sort of multiple comparison procedure.

    But it does not appear to apply if the objective was to look at one result of a single test and a single confidence limit.

    Prof Benjamini, this is your area of expertise.  Did I miss something?  PS, we met at a Gordon Conference many years ago.  You were a post-doc, I was working for Goodyear.

    Prof Komaroff, I taught online for Keiser about 10 years ago.

    ------------------------------
    Emil M Friedman, PhD
    emilfriedman@gmail.com
    http://www.statisticalconsulting.org
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-13-2017 08:50
    Hi Dr. Friedman.  Although I still have mixed feelings about online education, the written discussions with adult PhD graduate students from various backgrounds at Keiser have pushed me to think about issues that I have not previously contemplated, so am enjoying the experience.   I also thought that Meeks & D'Agostino were talking about biased CIs after multiple looks, but they stated that both conditional and unconditional CIs can be "bad practice."  I feel stuck because I used to tell students if you have a significant p-value, there is a good chance (e.g., 95%) that the confidence interval includes the alternative parameter. Was I promulgating bad advice? Now I am not sure.  I understand there is also a posterior "effect size," (SPSS produces that with a click of a mouse), but that also relies on the sample statistic as an estimate of the alternative parameter.  

    Eugene Komaroff
    Professor of Education
    Keiser University Graduate School. 
     





  • 25.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-13-2017 09:54
    Generally speaking I just look at the confidence interval. 

    The only time I use p-values is when I test whether an interaction term is needed or when I'm engaged in some other kind of model reduction exercise.  And in those cases confidence limits are automatically suspect.

    ------------------------------
    Emil M Friedman, PhD
    emilfriedman@gmail.com
    http://www.statisticalconsulting.org
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-21-2017 09:58
    Any thoughts on applicability to special applicability with nonlinear dose-response modeling?   (Data may be modeled when significant effects are observed.)

    ------------------------------
    David Farrar
    Statistician
    US EPA Office Research & Development
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  • 27.  RE: Post Hoc Parameter Estimation

    Posted 02-24-2017 10:58
    Whether or not you compute a confidence interval is psychology, not statistics. All confidence intervals exist whether or not the stat test is signifcant and whether or not you choose to compute the CI so conditionality is inappropriate. There are situations where post-hoc inspection is required - for k > 2 means, the studentized range, not the t statistic, is appropriate for testing largest vs smallest mean and the test, in this sense, is conditional.

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    Chauncey Dayton
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